Sleepy 7 month old Dragon, brumating?

[kamaladevii]

Hi

I apologize in advance for a somewhat longish letter, but I want to communicate thoroughly all information that you might need to make an opinion on the matter. Me and my boy friend have two dragons that have been with us since they were both about 2 months old. They are now about 7 months old and are 13.75 and 17 inches. We've done a lot of research on the net and asked many forums about feeding and general care but there's a lot of conflicting information on when you start treating a beardie as an adult. Some say 16 inches, some say 12 months, others say 200 grams.

Also I'm concerned that the bigger dragon (Kilda) who is 17 inches (& 7months old) is going through a brumation. But it's May, neither winter nor summer, and she's young! I've read in the forums that this can actually happen. She seems to hide in the shade now more often and isn't as active as she used to be. She's 7 months old, 300+ grams, and 17 inches long. She seems lethargic in the enclosure until I take her out then she'll run to my bedroom mirror and stare at herself for a while.

She seems to be avoiding the UV. There's a basking log behind the beardies' basking platform where they can get away from the basking light but be about 6 inches from the UV. Zoey the little one, still goes to the log every time he's done with basking but Kilda will go down to the floor and hide her head beneath the log as if to hide from the UV bulb.

The dragons have a 24 x 22 x 48 enclosure each, they were housed together until Kilda started bullying Zoey. They have 36” Reptisun 10s that will be 6 months old in july (and need to be replaced). Both enclosures use Coralife Digital Thermometers and have Linoleum as a flooring (I used double sided tape to install the flooring so there are no issues with glue fumes). They both bathe every day for hydration and so they don't poop in their cages.

Kilda used to eat 12 large canned crickets a day (chopped up in half ) and get her veggies in the morning . She eats her veggies regularly, though not that much, but will eat her crickets like there's no tomorrow. I thought I'd feed her veggies every day, and protein every other day for now because some sites recommend to start feeding dragons 17 inch, or over 200 grams as adults. She was growing about .25 to .5 of and inch every week. I feed Zoey about 45 – 50 large reptiworms a day. He will eat veggies every now and then but not regularly. He's a lot smaller but very active and sociable so I'm not really worried about him, or should I be?

Besides Kilda's behavior I'm also concerned that if I feed our dragons as adults prematurely they'll not grow to their optimum, on the flip side, if we feed them as adults later they might develop kidney problems from too much protein. Some sites recommend to treat a beardie as an adult after 12 months.

Thanks again for the time. We are looking forward to hearing from you!

Yours truly,

Cj

 

[catUK]

they will naturally slow down on their eating so you'll know when to cut back. My beardie has just turned 1 and slowed down at 10-11 months. I still offer her morio worms and locusts every day but some days she will not eat (i have stopped worrying as she is putting on weight and still growing). You sound like your doing a good job with your beardies. The sleeping could be a number of things but its very unlikely that its brumation. It could be something simple like she's having a few lazy days (i know mine does :roll: ) and she's getting to that age when they start to slow down. Could she be about to shed?- that can cause lethargicness. You could always have a fecal test done at the vet to rule out parasites. Hope this helps a bit

 

[michigan101]

What substate are you using? What veggies are you feeding? I would continue to offer a variety of greens daily as well as (dusted) crickets and worms. With a young dragon it is hard to over feed them since they are growing like weeds!

This site is very helpful. I recommend clicking the "care sheets and articles" link at the top right of the page. Read over the care sheets and feel free to ask any questions

 

[kamaladevii]

To those that wrote back, thank you for your replies. I'm at wits end here. I use no substrate, the cages have linoleum as a flooring as stated in my original post.

I am concerned that Kilda is not getting enough UV because she is avoiding it and sleeping under her log instead.

I am also confused as to whether I should treat her as an adult bearded dragon and not feed her protein as much as she is 300 grams, and 17 inches despite her age. Some sites do recommend to feeding protein every other day, or 3 times a week when the dragons become sub-adults. But that whole transition thing is confusing because many sites consider an adult a 12 month old beardie. At seven months she definitely is still growing.

Should I continue to feed her as a juvenile or sub-adult? Do I lessen her protein intake? I'm worried that her slowing down, if it's not an untimely brumation, is caused by her kidneys being overworked from too much protein. Also if I continue to feed her reptiworms and crickets, and she won't bask (unless I put her on her basking rock, and only for a bit) then she won't be able to digest her food properly.

I hope this makes clear the predicament man and my beardie are in. Thank you again for your responses.

Cj

 

[michigan101]

My girl Stella is also big for her age. She is almost 500 grams and is 10 months old. About 3 months ago she started doing the same thing as yours did. She wouldn’t eat, started hiding and being lethargic. Turns out she had coccidia. I took her to the vet and she got treated. Then after a CLEAN fecal came back, she still didn’t become active. I thought maybe she was going into brumation (was told she wasn’t since she was so young) but I let her do her thing. So for about a month she slept. (don’t allow her to brumate without a clean fecal first) I still offered greens and soaked her about 2X week. I kept an eye on her weight though. That is cructial. She never lost more than 10 grams and usually gained it all back after a soak. After about a month I forced her to wake up (figured she didn’t need to sleep for long being sooo young)

Currently I have her basking temp at about 96-98 (which is adult temps) maybe yours needs temps to be adjusted?

As far as diet goes, I would start offering live crickets, ones she can chase. Mine will not eat dead ones, they need to be moving to catch her attention. And let her decide when she wants to go on “adult feeding routine” I still offer Stella as many crickets as she wants daily. Some days she doesn’t eat em, but I will still offer.

 

[Gail]

At 7 months I would still consider her a juvie, she still needs protein everyday. I'd probably feed a 50/50 diet and try switching up her feeders, she is plenty big enough to try superworms. Most people on here consider them adult at 12-18 months of age, size doesn't really have anything to do with it.
Is she just hiding her head under the log or her whole body? You might try and remove the log, see if it it helps. Some natural sun might also perk her up.

 

[kamaladevii]

Thanks again for the prompt reply guys.

Michigan10:
Sounds like your beardie and mine have a lot in common. Knowing that makes me feel a little better. Was Stella's stool runny as per usually the case with a coccidia infestation? Kilda's stool is firm and not runny at all, and doesn't break up in the water when she takes a dump in her bath. I give her baths everyday so she doesn't stink up the house. I'd be very concerned if your beardie's poop didn't appear like there was anything the matter and got a positive for coccidia. That would mean I would have to get both my dragons checked as they shared a cage a few months ago. I will have to anyway, if Kilda is trying to brumate.

Gail:
Thanks for that. Perhaps a 50/50 would do the trick. I do want her to get better but I also want her to grow to her optimum size. About her hiding, she will sometimes hide just her head, then sometimes her entire body. The log is against the back wall of her enclosure and runs almost the entire length of it. She does need it so she can get close enough to her UV. I can put up pics if you like, but the log is situated in such a way that it is 6-8 inches away from the Reptisun 10s in some areas and about 4 inches away in other so she can choose where to hang out for more or less UV. Incidentaly the other cage is setup the same and Zoey (my other dragon) will move from one point of that log to the next and back to his basking rock.

Right now Kilda is basking on her rock, but mostly because I put her there. She will usually stay there for while and drop down to the enclosure floor and hide when she's had enough. I have yet to see her climb up back on the rock after that. I usually just put her right back up on the basking spot after half an hour or so. Her basking temps right now are 105 -108 I will try putting them lower to just about a hundred as you guys suggested. But my guess is that would enforce her desire to brumate, if that's what's going on.

By the way, the weather Her in Orange County CA is weird. A few days ago it was really hot about 89 F! It was so hot that the beardie's basking bulbs automatically shut off ( I have them programmed via a thermostat to shut off if the basking temps go over 87.5 F.) and stayed off for the better part of the day! Then a couple days later, the temps drop to about 72 F. The weather here is a little crazy lately, do you think that this has something to do with Kilda's behavior? She' been like this for about a couple of weeks now.

 

[jomeigs]

My Rex was doing the same thing. He was hiding under his Repticarpet. He started eating less and less. I thaught some kind of brumation also. When he stopped eating completly for 4 days, we took him to the vet. At first she thaught maybe Rex was a girl, but ruled that out. While we waited for his stool sample results she had put him on antibiotics. Then his stool showed pinworms. After he finished his first round of deworming, he started eating and is slowly getting back to his normal routine. This bout significantly slowed his growth. It has been only 3 days since he started eating again, but hope he will fatten up again. In this photo from todays bath, you can see how small Rex is compared to to Jet who isalmost 2 months younger than him. Rex used to be a lot bigger than Jet.

 

[kamaladevii]

Was Rex's stool non-formed, and watery during that time he wasn't eating as much? I'm not sure what the symptoms for pinworm infestation are, but Kilda's stool is formed and very normal looking. Plus she'll eat any bug you put in from of her.

I'm thinking of purchasing a parasite testing kit and a 2nd hand microscope just to make sure my beardies aren't infested with parasites... Have any of you had experience with the ones bought at beautifuldragons?

Cj

 

[jomeigs]

Rex's stool stayed normal.

 

[kamaladevii]

That's worrisome... Pinheads are from crickets right? Kilda eats exclusively canned crickets and/or reptiworms which don't carry pinheads. I guess she could have gotten them when she was young at the breeders when she used to eat crickets there.

I'm not familiar with the life cycle of pinheads, do they lay eggs outside of the host like Coccidia do? The reason I ask if they don't then once infected--always infected.

 

[kamaladevii]

Bump

 

[Kaiser]

That's worrisome... Pinheads are from crickets right? Kilda eats exclusively canned crickets and/or reptiworms which don't carry pinheads. I guess she could have gotten them when she was young at the breeders when she used to eat crickets there.

I'm not familiar with the life cycle of pinheads, do they lay eggs outside of the host like Coccidia do? The reason I ask if they don't then once infected--always infected.

Do you mean "pinworms"? Out of most, if not all the staple feeders for bearded dragons, crickets are usually the most prone to carrying pinworms. I'm not exactly sure about the life cycle of pinworms, but I hear they're relatively easy to treat for (at least in comparison to other parasites). As a precautionary, I would also thoroughly spot clean after bowel movements, at least.

 

[kamaladevii]

Yes I meant pinworms, thanks. The cheapest herp vet in our area we’ve found cost 60+ just to visit, and another 30 for the fecal tests! That’s a t least 180 per dragon just to do the fecal exam (2 visits and 2 tests each). We recently purchased and a fecal exam kit from beautifuldragons.com for 12 bucks and a brand new 640 x microscope ($78.oo) from amscope.com. My boy friend did the fecal exam and found our two beardies positive with coccidia and pinworms. We’ve started them on albon and panacur that we also ordered from beautifuldragons.com.

Since both are infested (and the smaller one seems more infested than the larger one) I’m wondering why only the larger one (Kilda) is displaying symptoms, if indeed her general lethargy is a symptom of her infestation at all.

We’re also concerned with the appearance of her beard (her neck actually) because it’s larger then most bearded dragons’ we’ve seen. Our research on the web points to either too much protein in her diet, or an infection of some sort. It could also be normal especially for some large females. Kilda’s only 7 months old so we’re concerned.

Since Albon is an antibiotic, if she had an infection in her throat, do you guys think the Albon should also take care of it?

If all else is normal after we get rid of the parasites then it might be that she’s trying to brumate as first suspected.

We’ll keep you guys posted on the results, in the hope that this might help others with the same situation.

Thanks for all the help so far.

Cj

 

[kamaladevii]

I've posted pics of Kilda so you guys can see what I mean about her neck/beard being larger than most beardies I've seen. Does that seem normal? Her neck has always kinda big even as a juvenile.

Thanks again.

Cj