Should we be worried about this poop?

[Zucchini]

We got a Baby Bearded dragon in mid February. He is going through his second shed.

He will eat a couple bites of veggies but mostly eats only Dubia Roches.I try to gut load the roaches with veggies.

He started having alot looser poops during this shed. He is moving around some but you can tell he is pretty uncomfortable.

Does this look OK? Is that common durring shed? I just read about gout and now I'm worrying about him getting that.

I have tried bsfl but he won't even try it.

He likes arugula, zucchini, cucumbers, and squash but will have one or 2 bites.

 

[shmoomunchkin]

Feeding roaches veggies certainly won't cause them to accumulate additional uric acid. I don't know long they would have to be on a veggie diet to reduce whatever uric acid is already being carried.

Gut loading is always a good idea regardless as whatever salad the roaches don't digest is available for your dragon. It's also important to keep the roaches hydrated as that water is available to your dragon.

That's interesting and not something I came across in my research. I imagine parasites lead to dehydration which would contribute. It's also possible that during a vet visit related to parasites gout would be discovered coincidentally.

Also to be clear my post earlier wasn't to indicate your Dragon has gout. Certainly I don't think a watery poo is a reason to be concerned about gout. Swollen limbs are one of the first signs. General crankiness when shedding is not uncommon in healthy dragons.

I also didn't mean to indicate Dubairoaches.com wasn't a good place to get roaches for those concerned about gout. On the contrary the fact that they are aware of the uric acid issue and publish the amount of protein fed to thier feeders is the reason I continue to buy my roaches there.

 

[shmoomunchkin]

I have done some serious research into dubias, especially after my baby died from gout.

The article you posted (the guy who developed Repashy) is quite good.
A big part of the dubia question, that can't quite be answered, is how people feed them...
People feed their roaches with pet food, grains, meat. I don't know that this has been studied enough to give a true answer on uric acid levels vs. people who feed them plant based diet (and their beardies are healthy). The study didn't address basic health level of the beardies.

Also, many pet store beardies are victims of bulk, and back-yard breeding. Mine had congenital kidney disease...the dubias and treatment for coccidia probably hastened his death by a few months, but the dubias didn't cause it.

No argument from me, just some thoughts...

I would like to see a study with base line health checks of the beardies (uric acid levels, etc.). I don't imagine this will ever happen.

Anyhow, thanks for your post, and if you read this, thanks for reading this rambling post!

 

[Axil]

A big part of the dubia question, that can't quite be answered, is how people feed them...
People feed their roaches with pet food, grains, meat. I don't know that this has been studied enough to give a true answer on uric acid levels vs. people who feed them plant based diet

This is what i sorta tried to answer with one of the links in my post. The following image is from an article referencing a study behind a paywall and is for german cockroaches not dubia.

But your point is still valid, what is 100-200ug/mg compared to what is produced by the normal breakdown of protien by the Dragon's liver? I have no idea.

I did manage to find this (bolded mine):

Uric Acid​

In Clinical Veterinary Advisor: Birds and Exotic Pets, 2013

Physiology​

In birds and reptiles, uric acid is the major end-product of protein metabolism. It is produced by the liver and excreted by kidney tubules; impaired elimination is an indication of renal disease. However, normal levels can be seen in early disease states. Approximately 90% of uric acid is secreted by the proximal tubules in avian species. Excreted UA passes through the cloaca and is retropulsed back into the rectum and cecum, where is it broken down by bacteria and is reabsorbed. At least 60% of renal function must be lost for an elevation in uric acid to be seen; therefore, it is not a sensitive indicator of renal disease. The definition of hyperuricemia is as follows: “plasma uric acid concentration higher than the calculated limit of solubility of sodium urate in plasma.” For most birds and reptiles, this theoretical limit of solubility usually is estimated to be about 10.8 mg/dL (600 µmol/L).

Sadly i do not know how to convert the numbers related to UA levels in dubia to the carrying capacity of the Dragon but it looks like the data might be available to the appropriately trained mind. I also do not know to what extent chronically elevated UA levels might cause kidney disease in the first place.

I would like to see a study with base line health checks of the beardies (uric acid levels, etc.). I don't imagine this will ever happen.

There must be a baseline. Gout is diagnosed in part by UA levels, you can't have elevated UA levels without baseline UA levels.

This study was conducted recently, and only has an N of 12 but it shows baseline UA levels of 2.5 +- 1.5mg/dl )

I'm actually glad i read that study as it was only conducted two years ago and seems to suggest that the conventional wisdom (and a matter of fact in some other birds and reptiles) is that UA levels peak after a meal within 2 hours. Where as this study found... well i'll just quote so i don't butcher it in translation:

Results​

Bearded dragons of the treatment group had significantly higher plasma uric acid concentration at the 24-hour time point (mean ± SD, 6.5 ± 1.2 mg/dL), compared with the 0-hour time point within the same group (2.5 ± 1.5 mg/dL; P < 0.001) and with the control group (2.6 ± 1.2 mg/dL; P = 0.005) at the 24-hour time point (Figure 1). For the treatment group, plasma uric acid concentrations at the 4-hour and 48hour time points were not significantly different from the time 0 concentration. For the control group, no changes in plasma uric acid concentration were detected among time points.

So if your vet wants a baseline "fasting" number for UA. You cannot get one unless you fast your Dragon for 48 hours. And if your vet is not caught up on fairly recent studies targetted at Bearded Dragons specifically they may not be aware of this.

By the way @Zucchini I realize this getting well into the weeds on the topic of gout and doesn't have anything to do with your Dragons Poo. If this is germane to your concern about gout and useful to you then great. If it is not, and you feel it's derailing your thread kindly let me know and i won't clog this thread up anymore.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Great discussion guys, thanks!
Just some other information, a lot of the commercialized gut load & feed for insects has
genetically modified grains such as corn & soy which are notorious for causing health issues
in humans & animals alike.

Tracie

 

[shmoomunchkin]

This is what i sorta tried to answer with one of the links in my post. The following image is from an article referencing a study behind a paywall and is for german cockroaches not dubia.

But your point is still valid, what is 100-200ug/mg compared to what is produced by the normal breakdown of protien by the Dragon's liver? I have no idea.

I did manage to find this (bolded mine):

Sadly i do not know how to convert the numbers related to UA levels in dubia to the carrying capacity of the Dragon but it looks like the data might be available to the appropriately trained mind. I also do not know to what extent chronically elevated UA levels might cause kidney disease in the first place.


There must be a baseline. Gout is diagnosed in part by UA levels, you can't have elevated UA levels without baseline UA levels.

This study was conducted recently, and only has an N of 12 but it shows baseline UA levels of 2.5 +- 1.5mg/dl )

I'm actually glad i read that study as it was only conducted two years ago and seems to suggest that the conventional wisdom (and a matter of fact in some other birds and reptiles) is that UA levels peak after a meal within 2 hours. Where as this study found... well i'll just quote so i don't butcher it in translation:

So if your vet wants a baseline "fasting" number for UA. You cannot get one unless you fast your Dragon for 48 hours. And if your vet is not caught up on fairly recent studies targetted at Bearded Dragons specifically they may not be aware of this.

By the way @Zucchini I realize this getting well into the weeds on the topic of gout and doesn't have anything to do with your Dragons Poo. If this is germane to your concern about gout and useful to you then great. If it is not, and you feel it's derailing your thread kindly let me know and i won't clog this thread up anymore.

Thanks for the further info. I didn't know they had to fast for 48 hours for an accurate uric acid level. You are definitely more knowledgeable/better read in on this, than I am!

 

[Zucchini]

This is what i sorta tried to answer with one of the links in my post. The following image is from an article referencing a study behind a paywall and is for german cockroaches not dubia.

But your point is still valid, what is 100-200ug/mg compared to what is produced by the normal breakdown of protien by the Dragon's liver? I have no idea.

I did manage to find this (bolded mine):

Sadly i do not know how to convert the numbers related to UA levels in dubia to the carrying capacity of the Dragon but it looks like the data might be available to the appropriately trained mind. I also do not know to what extent chronically elevated UA levels might cause kidney disease in the first place.


There must be a baseline. Gout is diagnosed in part by UA levels, you can't have elevated UA levels without baseline UA levels.

This study was conducted recently, and only has an N of 12 but it shows baseline UA levels of 2.5 +- 1.5mg/dl )

I'm actually glad i read that study as it was only conducted two years ago and seems to suggest that the conventional wisdom (and a matter of fact in some other birds and reptiles) is that UA levels peak after a meal within 2 hours. Where as this study found... well i'll just quote so i don't butcher it in translation:

So if your vet wants a baseline "fasting" number for UA. You cannot get one unless you fast your Dragon for 48 hours. And if your vet is not caught up on fairly recent studies targetted at Bearded Dragons specifically they may not be aware of this.

By the way @Zucchini I realize this getting well into the weeds on the topic of gout and doesn't have anything to do with your Dragons Poo. If this is germane to your concern about gout and useful to you then great. If it is not, and you feel it's derailing your thread kindly let me know and i won't clog this thread up anymore.

That's totally fine. I think it's great to have conversations and knowledge.

The last thing I want is my child to be crushed or an animal to suffer because I don't know what I'm doing.

 

[shmoomunchkin]

That's totally fine. I think it's great to have conversations and knowledge.

The last thing I want is my child to be crushed or an animal to suffer because I don't know what I'm doing.

That stool looks good
: good amount of urate (urine), and per my vet, the extra liquid is just that, extra waste water.

If the stool has a strong stench, bring in a sample to a beardie vet to rule out parasites.

I think it's important to get a base line, well- lizard visit with a reptile specialist when they are young: they check stool, overall growth, skin, and check on your husbandry.

Also, pictures of baby beardies are always appreciated ;

 

[Zucchini]

That stool looks good
: good amount of urate (urine), and per my vet, the extra liquid is just that, extra waste water.

If the stool has a strong stench, bring in a sample to a beardie vet to rule out parasites.

I think it's important to get a base line, well- lizard visit with a reptile specialist when they are young: they check stool, overall growth, skin, and check on your husbandry.

Also, pictures of baby beardies are always appreciated ;

 

[Zucchini]

That stool looks good
: good amount of urate (urine), and per my vet, the extra liquid is just that, extra waste water.

If the stool has a strong stench, bring in a sample to a beardie vet to rule out parasites.

I think it's important to get a base line, well- lizard visit with a reptile specialist when they are young: they check stool, overall growth, skin, and check on your husbandry.

Also, pictures of baby beardies are always appreciated ;

 

[shmoomunchkin]

Beautiful guy, and he looks happy to be held!

A well lizard visit with a reptile vet is good, if only to put your mind at ease about his basic health (stool).

 

[Zucchini]

Beautiful guy, and he looks happy to be held!

A well lizard visit with a reptile vet is good, if only to put your mind at ease about his basic health (stool).

Thanks.... I was thinking it may be a good idea to get him looked at and overall tests. I just worry about freaking him out and stressing him out.

I also feel like sometimes vets can look to much for a problem and create something that's not there but I guess that's all about finding the right vet.

 

[shmoomunchkin]

Thanks.... I was thinking it may be a good idea to get him looked at and overall tests. I just worry about freaking him out and stressing him out.

I also feel like sometimes vets can look to much for a problem and create something that's not there but I guess that's all about finding the right vet.

Yes! I was in this situation recently. The best part is getting a stool sample analyzed. I waited until my guy was about 6 months old. He was gaining height/weight appropriately, so I felt I could wait.

A good thing to have on hand is a paper measure tool and a kitchen scale to get a good measure of growth...it can be very reassuring!

On the positive side, I put a hand warmer under a towel, transported my guy about 1.5 hours away, and he actually looked pretty enthused about the sights/sounds/smells. I was very surprised!

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

It gives a more accurate reading of the uric acid levels if they don't have much in their system.
I realize that is hard to do! Though, overall you can still get a pretty accurate reading in general
at a normal blood draw.
How is your dragon doing today? That is such a cute picture of him, very sweet.

Tracie

 

[Zucchini]

Hello,

It gives a more accurate reading of the uric acid levels if they don't have much in their system.
I realize that is hard to do! Though, overall you can still get a pretty accurate reading in general
at a normal blood draw.
How is your dragon doing today? That is such a cute picture of him, very sweet.

Tracie

I think he is doing great. Always wants to eat and is very sweet. I really appreciate this group helping and giving advice. Google searches are brutal. I couldn't find anything that says some extra water in the poop is ok. It's always dooms day. This is our guy waking up this morning.

 

[Axil]

I think he is doing great. Always wants to eat and is very sweet. I really appreciate this group helping and giving advice. Google searches are brutal. I couldn't find anything that says some extra water in the poop is ok. It's always dooms day. This is our guy waking up this morning.

He sure looks like a happy guy to me!

I had similar experiences with Google. Lots of unsourced, contradictory information. There is good info, and even a few peer reviewed studies in the mess but it's hard to find.