SEVERE shedding problem

[kariann]

Hi Mich,

I'm sorry to hear the vet report wasn't good. I understand your hesitancy to go forward with aggressive diagnostics at this point and I'm sure your fears are warranted (i.e. a anesthesia/surgery for a debilitated reptile carries a lot of risks).

Was your vet willing to try any supportive/presumptive treatment? I'm thinking fluids (assuming she is dehydrated), appetite stimulants, antibiotic injection (e.g. Fortam lasts 3 days) +/- acetylcysteine......... I don't know but maybe if she'd begin to eat it would give you and your vet time to figure this out.

I know it is very frustrating and heartbreaking to put so much effort forth and still have a very sick animal, but I really believe that fate brings these special cases to the people best equipped to handle them. I imagine your gecko would have expired long ago if it wasn't for all your knowledge, love, and care. I am sure whatever happens you will make the right decision for her. Please let us know how she does.

Sincerely,
Kari

 

[Drache613]

Hello Mich,

That is too bad. That really is the only way however, to really get to the bottom of any other health problems. Though, putting her through anesthesia & the other diagnostics would probably be too much for her & she could pass away during that process.
Unfortunately, these things do happen & sometimes it is nothing that anyone has done, but it is genetics & bad luck for both the reptile & the human involved. It definitely doesn't make it any easier to have to make decisions like this.
Perhaps just give the Acetylcysteine time to work or to see if it will make any difference for her. I agree, maybe consider some supportive care if you haven't already done so just to ensure she is getting enough nutrition.
Has she eaten anything at all for you lately?

Please do let us know how she is doing.

Tracie

 

[mich]

I wasn't offered anything to help promote eating .. and when you guys gave me the name of the shedding medication I literally walked in and asked for it by name .. but she did eat 2 crickets last night, the first things she has eaten in almost a week!!! Her skin is starting to feel a little better, she was actually walking around last night .. but her eyes are still nearly shut and she doesn't go drink on her own (not that I see) .. I am still offering her water out of a medicine dropped 2 and 3 times a day which she does drink. I was considering having the vet put her down this afternoon because I refuse to let the poor little girl starve to death but she actualy ate a bit .. I so so so hope she keeps eating because she'll never get stronger if she doesn't.

 

[kariann]

Did they give you some acetylcysteine? If so, basically you apply it and in a couple of minutes the skin has softened so you can use small forceps or tweezers to GENTLY peel away the skin. I bet she'd be far more likely to eat if the retained shed was cleared from around her eyes so she could open them and see better. If you just apply it and don't start peeling before it has dried, then it isn't really going to help (especially for an ill lizard that won't be working on getting that shed off herself).

Vitamin b-12, metronidazole (one oral dose), and valium have each been used as appetite stimulants in reptiles with varying success. Since retained shed can be painful, I'd try to remove it with the acetylcysteine before resorting to appetite stimulants assuming you can get the product from your vet in a timely fashion. I can't see the harm in antibiotics, fluids, and/or appetite stimulants being tried for a short time if you are to the point of considering euthanasia. However, given the severity and duration of the problem, it is very reasonable to decide to let her go and end her suffering. As her caregiver, you are the person best able to make that decision for your gecko.

 

[kariann]

If you don't feel comfortable peeling away the shed after acetylcysteine has been applied, then your vet should do it for you. Ophthalmic forceps (instrument for manipulating delicate tissues associated with the eye) may work the best. In any case, you just avoid sharp edges scraping her if she moves while you are peeling.

 

[mich]

The vet did give me a small bottle of acetylcysteine to take home. He suggested I apply it once a day for 2 days and if no change said to bring her back and have her put down. That would have been today but since she ate a little last night I'm torn now. I have tweezers that I use just for her to pull off the shed because I literally have had to do it for every shed she's ever had, it's always been a problem but at first I just had to do the toes .. then eventually the part around her feet, the shed would pull off like a little glove .. but it just gets worse and worse each shed until I am at where I am now. I did have other females housed with her and of course they are perfectly fine as are all my geckos in multiple enclosures
and I am so stinking meticulous with all my herp set ups so I am 99.9% positive it isn't an enclosure issue. Now even if she gets better I won't house her with anything else again. Guess it could also be a genetic thing and I'll never breed her.

I got most of the shed off last night .. and some of it just won't loosen up even after 2 days of using the acetylcysteine. The skin ontop of her head is still 'tight' looking and feels dry but there is no loose edge anywhere to try and peel from and the drops don't seem to be doing anything there .. same as her tail, but the rest of her body I managed to slowly and painstakingly peel after drops and baths. People on other forums gave me some back lash for pulling the shed off but give me a break, I know normally it wouldn't be a great idea, I'd never risk damaging the skin of any of my herps just for the sake of peeling it off if it weren't necessary :roll:

I guess I'll see if she eats anymore tonight .. if not then maybe then I'll try the b-12 thing. Can I get that at a pharmacy or is it a vet thing? My vet seems willing enough to give me the medication I request, he has seen how bad she is, but if I don't specifically ask for something then I don't seem to get it.

 

[kariann]

I PM'd you with the doses and routes of administration for appetite stimulants that you can speak with your vet about. Please keep us posted.

Best wishes,
Kari

 

[kariann]

Hi Mich,

How is your gecko doing? Did you get my private message with the appetite stimulant doses? Please post an update when you can.

 

[mich]

Yes I did thank you very much!!!! .. I'm going to try to get back into my vet tomorrow, couldn't get in today .. and if I get in I'll take a print out fo your PM That's exactly what I did when you guys recommended the acetylcysteine. I also took pics of her but they didn't turn out very well, she is already a pale yellow pattenless albino so it's hard to see the shedding issues and tight dry skin on that color of gecko. When I peaked in on her this morning it looked like she was in a full body shed again .. but they usually shed a lot farther apart then that ..she is all pale and dry again and in a few places like where her skin covers joints (like her ankles to feet and legs to body) you can see where the 'old' skin is cracked and starting to peel back and you can see the new skin is underneath easily just like a regular shed .. I am really worried about what is making her sluff off her skin like this .. I kind of fear all the acetylcysteine and appetite stimulants are only temp solutions staving off a bigger problem that isn't going to get better, know what I mean?

Time out doors was suggested but she is a leopard gecko and nocturnal so taking her out for some natural sun I think would stress her out. If it were a bearded or iguana type herp I'd set up my screen enclosures and max out as much natural UV time as I could get. I know they need heat to properly digest ect but I was wondering, and feel free to jump in here, should i maybe take out the warm hide and remove the heat cable from under the enclosure for a chunk of time during the day, leaving her nowhere else to go to hide but the moist hide, where she just might soak up a bit of extra moisture? On the flip side she should be getting pleanty of moisture with the acetylcysteine, baths and shed-aid mistings.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

How are things going?
Which appetite stimulants are you going to ask the vet for? You can get the B12 at a pharmacy over the counter, or at any health food store. Brewer's yeast is a great appetite stimulant, also. There may be other things the vet could recommend as well.
At least the skin is starting to peel away a little bit anyway. Some progress is better than none.
I understand, it is hard watching her go through this. Maybe it will just be a severe nutritional deficiency that could be corrected.

Please keep us posted!

Tracie

 

[kariann]

I am not really a gecko expert, but it is my understanding that all reptiles benefit from exposure to some sort of full spectrum UVB. Low level bulbs seem to be in favor for geckos among herp vets. You know her best, so if going outside for a brief sunlight visit (i.e. in her case maybe shaded area only not full sun) is a big stressor don't do it for sure.

As far as changing her viv to encourage her to use the box, I think that would stress her too and I agree all your bathing, OTC and prescription shed aides, etc. should be doing the trick if lack of moisture is at play. It doesn't seem like a straight-forward husbandry issue but more likely primary health problem. Please let us know how she does in the coming days.

 

[mich]

Well no new info on the vet front. Work was INSANE and there was just no way I could get out .. of course the animal hospital is also 9-5 which are the same hrs I work and on the other side of the city, extremely hard to get time off. But a little good news .. her full body shed is actually peeling away from her body a little more then normal, in little flaky piceces but still .. and she ate 1 cricket last night, not great but better then nothing. AND she is currently in her moist hide :shock: I checked in on her after work and sprayed her down with just the general shed aid this time and then she went into her moist hide. I use vermiculite for my laying geckos and she never even uses it for that, she'll just drop her eggs on the paper towle usually in the warm hide .. but I keep rotating the hides/sizes/substrates and providing her with multiple ones to choose from at any given time, she usually ignores every single one whether it be moss, cocofiber, vermiculite or moist papertowel but for some reason she is in the vermiculite one this time around!

The vet won't be an option till Monday now .. but I will go to the pharmacy tomorrow and get some b12. Is it in liquid gel cap? Should I mix with water and let her lick it off a medicing dropper? You asked what other kinds I was going to ask for, Kari was kind enough to suggest a few (Metronidazole, Diazepam and the B12), I'm sure my vet will give me one of those if I ask.

I don't believe for a second that a nutritional deficiency is what caused this but I don't doubt that could be a real issue now, maybe why she is shedding again so soon? Although always offered meal worms (some breeders just feed those alone) most of my geckos never touch them, only one. This one will eat the occasional fat little wax worm but I don't give those much and during the laying season they get crickets every night (every other night during non laying season when they don't want to eat nearly as often). She shows very little interest in silk worms and every now and then I've tried little 1" super worms that are newly molted and they never eat those. There is always fresh water bowls changed nightly and a dish of calcium avail all the time because leopard geckos unlike most herps will go and lick up what they need, and of course I have gut load and dust feeders with vitamins (dusted only about once a week, they are adults now). The substrate is always clean and dry, I find plain paper towel is the most sanitary, and thier moist hides and given a few light sprays of water nightly to keep them moist. All other geckos in my colony thrive and my hatchlings do amazingly well .. but this girl .. gaaahh

I bought her from a pet store as a juvenile and think I just got someone else's 'cast off'. Our city is small and our pet stores by herps off of locals who are by no means beeders but cheaper then supply chains. Stores here don't care much about stock, Ive seen many hatchlings fresh out of the egg and too young to be sold available in these stores... diurnal herps with no UVB and incorrect humidity, we've all seen our share I'm sure. I thought this pretty albino pattern less would make a nice addition to my breeding colony but some times you get more then you bargin for I guess. I have a friend who works at that pet store who after I mentioned the problmes I was having said "ohh I was wondering why they were selling her so cheap". Lovely. Most of my other herps are from credible breeders or friends so I know how they are cared for .. I've taken months to seek out some breeders .. took me months and a lot of traveling to find a good breeder to get my male leucistic dragon from. Bought my female sandfire from the same breeder because I was so impressed.

So anyway .. long msg sorry .. but progress, even a little, is encouraging!!

 

[Lk4sturns]

Interesting thread to learn from. I been thru few over years that stop eating for different reason. Tuff choice do you try above and hope eat on own or do slur. Down side to slur is if get weight back on and get healther alot times they won't go back to eating on there own, like they expect it but depend's on type lizard. I make my own with baby food, veg. and fruit (soy yogart also good to mix in) with whey or soy protien powder(prefer whey) or can use baby food meat with calium D'3 or multi (using each seperate to there needs). I even mix good stuff example being couple drops 99% aloe liq., so you could as example for 1 or 2 weeks add extra B12. You can also buy one like Oxbow and just mix in water and add to that. With all that said still need ajust ratio's which I know for B.D. but not Gecko. Still suggest try bath with combo mentioned before, found works much better than shed-aid's, can add little aloe gel to combo but usually do seperate.

Best Wish's
Scott

 

[mich]

I had someone warn me of that too .. once you start 'force' feeding you usually get stuck doing it and the llife span of a gecko is a lot longer then a bd but I think the baby food meat idea is great! I was actually just looking for a recipie for a slury on a gecko forum .. but the ingredients seems realy odd..

"In a blender, combine:
1 small can Hill's A/D pet food (available at most vets)
1/4-1/3 cup Ensure (not chocolate)
1 jar baby food squash -
1/4-1/3 cup Pedialite
2 crushed tablets or contents of 2 capsules Milk Thistle (herbal supplement, liver purifier, found at most drug stores.)
1/2 tsp. each calcium powder and herp vitamin powder -
1-2 extra large handfuls of mealworms"

Right now I don't have to force her to take water from a dropper, hopefully this will be the same. And the baby meat should cover any yucky tatse the B12 may have. I know the shed aid aren't great, I've never ever had to use one until now on any of my herps and i use it at night because my vet said to only use the acetylcysteine once a day for 2 days .. I actually used it for 2, took a break one day, and then used it again the next, and am using the shed spray. I don't know if using that stuff more then he recommended is harmful or not.

 

[Lk4sturns]

Cause been thru this many times like help, hard with time to write so long so if want call send me pm or e-mail. That combo looks good just be aware of overlapping ing. , which means read label. Also I mix up only 3 to 4 teaspoon at time and that last about 3 days. Reason do this cause baby food mix only stay fresh that long and once open baby food container appox. week ( no blender so fast and easy). Blend you wrote should stay fresh alot longer if using only canned or bottle, once mix in baby food it's short but thing more wholesome and fresher. Also B12 can get from NatureZone or Drug store in liq.. Also like idea if use blender mix in bugs instead of baby meat and extend mix life. You can also use can bug's instead of fresh like exo-tera silkworm or zoo-med's crickets or catipillar which are higher in fat if looking add wt. more quickly. I could keep going but got to stop here, I even realized I take Vit. and herp's so had M.T. so I just sprinkled little in my mix, once in a while been addding fish oil, vit. C, even been thing about using evening primrose and saw palmetto. Last with lizard found when had force feed that they like taste and work syn. (no metal only plastic) to side and they bite down on it each swallow, doing this very gentle manner so not hurt them cause little stress as can cause some are easy and some are hard. Last Gecko come from many different place so have different needs, forget which type but should be able find nurtional or some type food list on Gecko site, for B.D. I like BeaitfulDragons.com, they do petty good one.

Bye,
Scott
[email protected]
516-300-9760 Magicjack phone, works petty good.