Reptaid Discussion

[spyder79]

im sorry let me clarify
every three months i would do a 5 day "booster" run on my dragons. not three months straight on reptaid but a booster run every three months. sorry after re-reading what i typed it was not very clear and i apologize.

 

[TamiLynne]

Regarding a fecal test for gut flora.. I can say that I am unaware of how to quantify "good" bacteria. What we are typically looking for on a direct smear is either a protozoal infestation, coccidia, crypto, giardia, or an overgrowth of "bad" bacteria. In essence, we then can conclude that they are overloading the gut and inhibiting the good bugs. Bad bacteria include an overgrowth of spirochetes, clostridium, etc.

Elliot, you certainly have the gear to check your own direct smears. To prep, a tiny amount of feces is mixed in a drop of saline and smeared on a microscope slide. Some folks stain them, I choose not to since stains can harbor bacteria over time and give a false result. Reading them unstained takes some practice. There are great reference texts with photos to learn to identify everything. Red or white cells should definitely be noted if present, as well. Oh, and the smear should be examined under 40x magnification.

The other (common) test for intestinal parasites is a floatation. We use centrifugation and Sheather's sugar solution to "float" ova to the surface of a test tube of feces. This is MUCH more accurate than using Fecasol or other non-centrifuge techniques. This test can sometimes (if you have a good tech, and they use centrifugation) diagnose coccidia. Those cysts are hard to float. Otherwise a direct smear is needed.

Does that help?

-Tami*

 

[TamiLynne]

OH I should also add there's a second way to examine a smear if you have access to a set of DiffQuick stains.. Heat-fix and then stain a smear (no saline) of feces, and evaluate under an oil lens. You can differentiate bacteria better, and more easily evaluate cell morphology and composition. This is rarely done, though, and rarely necessary. Mostly it's for those border-line cases.

 

[pscaulkins]

I know my vet doesn't have tech's do the fecals. He likes to do them. I hope to have some time next week to talk to my vet about this and even ask him to teach me how to do it. He knows I do my own fecals to check for parasites as I have a vet microscope. I also know that he can tell me if Semi is missing all his gut flora or just some.

im sorry let me clarify
every three months i would do a 5 day "booster" run on my dragons. not three months straight on reptaid but a booster run every three months. sorry after re-reading what i typed it was not very clear and i apologize.

Why would you have to do a booster? I don't understand this.

 

[spyder79]

To give them the tools to keep their immune systems at peak performance. One of the main reasons that dragons get so overrode with parasites when they get sick is that they get a slight attack and than it grows and grows cause their immune system doesnt have the ability to fight it. By giving them a 5 day booster every 3 months it keeps their immune systems high and boosts their immune systems so that they can appropriately and successfully fight off anything in their systems that do not belong.

 

[ChamNW]

Tami
First let me say how much we all appreciate your time and attention to this forum and this thread in particular. It is very encouraging to have an educated professional in the veterinary business take the time to teach all of us uneducated reptile breeders and keepers about how to take care of our animals. OF course some may take offense by that comment. I will be the first to say that we have education by experience but that does not compare to real univesity education about the medical side of this profession. Naturally there is a proper balance to everything, and that is why this forum works for us all.

As for the fecal floats, I use a float product called Feca-Med by Unavet. And my microscope has a USB camera so I am looking at the screen on a 24" computer monitor instead of the eyepiece of the scope. It makes it so much easier. Then when I identify a parasite, I often take a photo with that camera and keep it on my harddrive. I have in the past taken a thumbdrive into the vet's office to confirm my finds. I work at 40x and then up to 100x if I want to really get a close up shot.

But I was under the impression, from what I have read that to see bacteria you have to use a 1000x magnification.

So just what is the gut flora that we have been discussing for soooo long. Is it bacteria or is it a protozoan? If it is a bacteria, what exactly are we looking for? And can you really see it at 40x?

And if you are saying that we cannot really tell what the concentration of good gut flora really is, but just making assumptions by the presence of the bad bacteria and such like, then maybe there really is no such test. In that case, my assumptions that the good gut flora is in abundance by the increased appetite, vitality and well being of the reptile is just as accurate. Maybe more so in my opinion.

Again I value your thoughts here...

 

[pscaulkins]

And if you are saying that we cannot really tell what the concentration of good gut flora really is, but just making assumptions by the presence of the bad bacteria and such like, then maybe there really is no such test. In that case, my assumptions that the good gut flora is in abundance by the increased appetite, vitality and well being of the reptile is just as accurate. Maybe more so in my opinion.

I disagree with the assumption we cannot tell the concentration of gut flora. I know my vet can. I also know not all vets believe in bad and good gut flora nor do they actually check for it because I have been to some. Gut flora is "good bacteria". Apparently, my vet knows what the good bacteria bearded dragons need for good digestion. I plan on asking him. Humans even have it but human form and not bearded dragon form. Even gecko's has it but it is different then bearded dragons. Each species has their own form of "good bacteria" that helps them with digestion.

Elliot, a bearded dragon can have a good appetite, vitality and well being without having the proper gut flora. This I can say, I have experienced first hand. Heck, I can say a sick dragon can have all that. Dragons are notorious for hiding illness until it's to late to help them. I learned this here from a vet that was on this site a few years ago if my memory serves me right. I also was told they can hide illness from a few trusted people that has been in the reptile field for over 20 years.

 

[TamiLynne]

Elliot - Thank you for your kind words, and I'm totally jealous of your high-tech setup!! I always use the high dry setting on our lab scope for my direct smears and can see bacteria well. I'm pretty sure it's 40x mag. Of course this is my first weekend off in like a year so I will have to wait until Monday to check.. heh. I'll report back.

pscaulkins - I very well may not know about the test your vet uses. My clinic is pretty high-tier but we are not a reptile specialty hospital, maybe I have not been trained on that particular test? Please let me know when you speak with him/her, I'd love to know what I'm missing! p.s. I wish our vets would condescend to touch poo with their lovely surgeons hands.. lol. Kidding. I love our doctors, they train us well and trust us completely. Of course we can always ask them to take a peek if we are unsure.

So now I'm excited to pull out my parisitology books and do some studying.. I'll see what I can dig up on "good" gut flora.

-Tami*

 

[DragonsInKansas]

I recieved mine in the mail today and I didn't get a needle with it. Was I supposed to, or where is everyone getting theirs?

 

[ajkry2]

I recieved mine in the mail today and I didn't get a needle with it. Was I supposed to, or where is everyone getting theirs?

I got a needle with mine... I shoot the proper dosage into a dubia and let sahara eat it. She loves it. If you didn't get a needle, I'm sure the mfr would help ya out just shoot em an email

 

[ChamNW]

You should have received a needle. Did you order the Reptaid from us at http://www.chameleonsnorthwest.com or did you get it from one of the other dealers? I would like to know so I can be sure they are all supplying the needle.
But you can get it at any pharmacy. just tell them you need a 1ml insulin syringe with the removeable needle. Should be about .50 cents.

 

[pscaulkins]

pscaulkins - I very well may not know about the test your vet uses. My clinic is pretty high-tier but we are not a reptile specialty hospital, maybe I have not been trained on that particular test? Please let me know when you speak with him/her, I'd love to know what I'm missing! p.s. I wish our vets would condescend to touch poo with their lovely surgeons hands.. lol. Kidding. I love our doctors, they train us well and trust us completely. Of course we can always ask them to take a peek if we are unsure.

-Tami*

My vet is not high tech but does specialize in reptiles and birds. I have been to a high tech clinic that charged a hazardous material handling fee for fecals. They sent them out of the lab and also didn't believe in doing gut flora checks. Gut flora does not live long in a fecal. My vet insists the fecal is less than two hours old so he can check the gut flora. He has offered to show me the gut flora but dummy me didn't think I needed to. Now I want to see it and learn how to do it. Now I just need to make the time as I am scheduled to work all next week so it may have to be the following week. I will let you know Tami.

 

[DragonsInKansas]

You should have received a needle. Did you order the Reptaid from us at http://www.chameleonsnorthwest.com or did you get it from one of the other dealers? I would like to know so I can be sure they are all supplying the needle.
But you can get it at any pharmacy. just tell them you need a 1ml insulin syringe with the removeable needle. Should be about .50 cents.

I got it from LLLReptile, ordered it online

 

[ChamNW]

Ok I will see them tomorrow at a show and let them know

 

[ajkry2]

tomorrow marks end of the first bout of 10 day treatments. i'll pull her off from wednesday through thursday and begin again on friday morning. cleaning her cage on saturday with an ammonia solution. and i have to say so far, so good.

i have noticed something i don't understand though. and that is there seems to be a puddle of water around her poop in the past few days. not sure what that means, if anything. also her bathroom schedule has changed. she goes about every day and a half now instead of every day...

i have been feeding her more roaches and superworms, but that shouldn't change her schedule this much. she may just be growing up :dontknow: ...