Re: Evidence supporting probiotics and pollen products

[Taterbug]

It’s a mixed bag.

In practice that sort of logic leads to a lot of woo in just about any community it is practiced in and can be straight up dangerous. Empirical evidence cannot be substituted with the collective experience a bunch of devoted and enthusiastic people. That’s not to say it’s not a valid contribution to the discussion and progress, but as “data” it does have a tendency to be unreliable. While I don’t think a peer-reviewed bit of research that is very specific to a topic is needed for every case, having a basis in science helps to validate information and opinions.

In this case, I think OP is right to raise questions about the advice that they quoted. It reads a lot like reasonably educated medical advice and also a lot like the person is suggesting to replace medical treatment with probiotics. It’s one thing to suggest probiotics are somewhere between ineffective and helpful, it’s completly another to suggest they are an effective alternative to anti-fungals.

 

[AHBD]

Just to address Tater's comment that you'll be hard pressed to find scientific data on certain things on this forum....it may be true because for the most part many exotics and even herp vets do not have a lot of expertise with reptiles. Some do, many don't. Therefore the existing body of expertise on many conditions that are common to beardies can sometimes be found on these forums, among people who have raised many dragons + seen what may work + what may not in various situations.

Just last week a poster was here with a dragon who's vet was ready to amputate the tail later that day. The tail was dark toward the end [ like many dragon's tails are ] but did not have tail rot as the poster was led to believe.

Years ago another " herp vet " amputated a tail all the way up so far that he cut off the hemipenes....the pics would make almost any animal lover cry. If the poster had come here BEFORE getting the animal butchered, it could still be alive today possibly.

So I could go on about many current and former threads with MUCH unnecessary use of antibiotics , many cases of misdiagnosed " sick " or non -gravid dragons [ one vet that was the top exotics vet at a zoo told a poster her dragon was not gravid, it laid eggs the next day ] Enemas done when a few natural laxatives could get things moving, etc. and so on....

This is in no way an unfriendly reply to your comment, [ I have lots of respect for Tater ] but a friendly reminder to everyone that this forum can often save time, money and even a dragon's life at times with no scientific data needed in every reply. Exactly what Cooper said.

 

[EllenD]

I'm going to chime in here since it's my comment that is being stupidly attacked, in my opinion anyway. First of all, I have a bachelor's degree in Health Science Pre-Medicine, a master's degree in Animal Health Science, and my classroom year of my master's degree in Physician Assistant studies, along with years working at the Animal Diagnostics Lab at Penn State. I'm not telling you this for any other reason than to prove that I'm not just shouting out things without an education or experience in practical application, and I also wasn't in any way "suggesting that antifungals or medical treatment be replaced with probiotics" as someone else suggested. That just sound like you didn't read my prior post to that one in the original thread, which I'm sure you didn't since the OP only posted my final post. Of course...My point was not to EVER try to suggest that anyone replace medical treatment with holistic treatments, hell, I'm the last person to suggest that, I just told Tracie the other day that she's just now influencing me to try a more holistic approach to medicine, and you know why? Because I have recently tried some things with my 6 month old dragon who has had a horrible infestation of pinworms, and guess what, THEY WORKED FOR HIM. Typically though, due to my education and history in the professional veterinary and human medical fields, I have rejected holistic medicine because I always have gone to the treatments "That are proven". Well like in this particular dragon's case, "Proven Medicine" had made her more and more sick. Tater, the point I was trying to make regarding the antifungal was that the poor owners had a dragon who had already been through the ringer, taken many prescription meds, and then acquired a yeast infection on top of everything else, secondary to the antibiotics it had already taken. So what I was trying to say was "What are their options here, they can put the dragon on yet ANOTHER prescription medication, an antifungal to treat the yeast infection that was caused by the prior multiple rounds of prescription meds, and then they'd be risking the dragon losing their appetite again, or they could spend $6 at Walmart and buy the Digestive Enzyme/Probiotic tablets that my own dragon has had great success with. Those were their options. So what was the harm of trying the latter first, since the poor dragon had already basically been poisoned by so many unnecessary meds prescribed by multiple vets. So Tater I'm sorry you didn't get to read the entire thread about this dragon, nor my post prior to this one that this OP posted. Bottom Line, I was offering an alternative to the dragon's owner instead of putting her on yet another medication, which they were not happy at all about doing.

My first post simply suggested trying probiotics, not in place of anything else, but simply to try to help replace the normal gut flora, which was also suggested by Tracie, who also endorses the use of probiotics in dragons. After I made that suggestion I said that it couldn't hurt anything to try probiotics, as they absolutely have helped a lot of dragons get their appetites back relatively quickly. Then the OP said that "The hurt is financial, probiotics are expensive and they're not proven to help, so it could hurt people who don't have the money to try something that isn't proven to work"...The OP was defensive out of no where. That's when I wrote the post that has been copied here. And again I'll ask, why not try everything, especially something that is known to help many dragons, people, other mammals, birds, etc. and doesn't cause a bit of physical harm?

I'll be the first to admit that I have always live in the US and have zero knowledge of what probiotics cost elsewhere in the world, but in the US they are not at all expensive, and I listed the ones that I use the most for my dragons, specifically the Spring Valley brand called "Multi-Enzyme Probiotics", which is a tablet that consists of several naturally occurring digestive enzymes as well as several prebiotics and probiotics. I as well as many others have had great luck both personally and professionally with giving probiotics to both my dragons and my parrots, specifically before, during, and after they have been getting antibiotic therapy. Are there journal articles or "scientific studies" (I'm not sure what exactly the OP wants as "Proof", but I'm assuming something by the way of a medical journal article describing a controlled study, if I'm wrong please let me know exactly what it is that you'd like as "Proof", I may not be understanding that correctly). Are there FDA controlled studies? Probably not.

I'll be honest, I never looked for any as I never came back to that thread to follow this, I just happened upon the OP's "Warning" to every person that comes on this forum to not even TRY giving your dragon probiotics or bee pollen (I didn't discuss Bee Pollen, but I do use it as well as an appetite stimulant). I'm sorry, but I have to be honest here, I think you are being extremely irresponsible and honestly unnecessarily defensive by actually adding a "Warning" to people in your forum signature, telling them to basically not even try giving their dragons a Probiotics if their appetite has disappeared after taking prescription meds, or for any other reason. I'm sorry that probiotics are so expensive in Australia, I wasn't aware of that, but I have to ask you a serious question: Since when do natural remedies absolutely not work at all if the FDA has not yet done any official, controlled studies on them? (I don't know, maybe they have, I haven't looked yet) Since when is it responsible to actually go on a mission to tell people to not take a natural supplement because you "Haven't gotten empirical data yet"? So you're actually willing to make the statement that since there is no "empirical data" or "official, controlled studies" showing that probiotics offer benefits to bearded dragons when taken to replace normal gut flora after antibiotic therapy, that no one should even try them? You want proof, well to me the best proof that a medication, herbal supplement, vitamin, mineral, or any holistic treatment works is when many, many people have used it with successful results. That's the best proof in the world. And the fact that there is absolutely no negative physical consequence to the dragon by trying the probiotics, then this is the best proof of all. It would be different if we were talking about something that has been shown to potentially cause negative results or side-effects, I wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place then. But that's just not the case with probiotics or bee pollen.

All "official" or "proven" medications start somewhere, and many, many medications that are now only available with a prescription have started out as over-the-counter medications or natural supplements. Actually a very high percentage have started that way. You don't have to use Bee Pollen or Probiotics yourself, and you don't have to give them to your dragon if you don't want to, though if you had a dragon that had been on several rounds of prescription meds and then lost their appetite completely (as many do) , and then started to lose weight and become lethargic, and your vet just gave you Critical Care and a vitamin injection and told you to keep force-feeding him, I know you'd be extremely worried, but would you actually refuse to not even try giving him a probiotic, while you know that it absolutely has helped quite a lot of beardies get their appetites back in this same situation? I certainly hope that you're not so dependent on "empirical data" and "controlled studies" that you would totally ignore a safe treatment that presents no negative side effects and has truly been proven by many experienced dragon owners (and a lot of Certified Reptile Vets, like mine of 15 years) to help.

EDIT: Just to add, I don't want to fight with you or anyone else, that's exactly the reason I never went back to that thread. The last thing I saw you write was something like "So where's that scientific proof you promised?' After I read that I never went back into the thread because it's silly for the two of us, myself included, to argue over something so silly. I have no issue at all having a mature, educated discussion about this, but I never meant this to be a challenge, and even if you didn't mean it that way, that's the way I took it. I just couldn't understand why you got so angry and actually more defensive than anything, with me and other very educated, experienced people who backed-up what I said regarding probiotics. You don't have to use them, but you also don't have to be on a mission to try to stop other people from trying them with their sick dragons who aren't eating or are developing secondary yeast infections after taking prescription meds. You could very well be stopping the owner of a sick dragon from buying a $6 bottle of Digestive Enzymes and Probiotics that could very likely help their dragon after just a couple of days of taking them.

 

[phobosdthorga]

It's not really a 'warning' more than it's just that I wish people would consider this thread before buying into such products. To me, this is no more different than homeopathy. For those wondering, the warning in my signature is directed at the ReptiSun lights but after reading your post, I have now removed it in order to prevent confusion. In no way did I mean this as an attack on your comment(s) and/or viewpoints, EllenD, all I wanted to do was instill some debate around this topic which is what I have seemed to have successfully accomplished.

Whilst we are mentioning educational accomplishments, I, myself, (almost) have a double Bachelour of Science degree with two majors in Applied Chemistry and Environmental Science. There were a couple of months left until the graduation exam and my health deteriorated significantly and permanently so but otherwise, I was the top of my class for three years running. I do have a Diploma in philosophy which I did manage to obtain though. But I am not attacking you intellectually, not in the slightest. There is testimonial evidence and there is empirical evidence, of which the latter is what I am looking for in this case. I'm glad these alternative forms of treatment have worked for you, I really am! But I want to be certain of is that they will work in every case given the right criteria, or even at all for that matter. There could have been other factors at play that resulted in your Beardies getting better for all we know, unless there was a controlled study taking place on them at the time. People are more likely to say that this and this worked too than, 'this did not work for me' plus once again, this is testimonial evidence.

Some people are very weird about this kind of thing too, and they will ONLY use this type of alternative therapy in treating themselves and their animals. Which is why we need to get the right information out there. Plus how do we know this helps many Dragons, birds, reptiles, etc.? Testimonial evidence is NOT empirical evidence and you should know that as a scientist yourself.

 

[AHBD]

Is the debate then for the sake of a debate or to better the health of an animal that is ailing ? If some people use probiotics and it does good for their animals and no one else who uses them here reports something bad, then that's helpful + the probiotics can be viewed in a positive light and as probably beneficial.

 

[Taterbug]

AHBD, No hard feelings at all I wish we had some better resources on how to help folks find a good vet, rather than the sort of general anti-vet hostility but i do agree! A fair many 'ailments' are non-issues.

I also wasn't in any way "suggesting that antifungals or medical treatment be replaced with probiotics" as someone else suggested. That just sound like you didn't read my prior post to that one in the original thread, which I'm sure you didn't since the OP only posted my final post.

Tater, the point I was trying to make regarding the antifungal was that the poor owners had a dragon who had already been through the ringer, taken many prescription meds, and then acquired a yeast infection on top of everything else, secondary to the antibiotics it had already taken. So what I was trying to say was "What are their options here, they can put the dragon on yet ANOTHER prescription medication, an antifungal to treat the yeast infection that was caused by the prior multiple rounds of prescription meds, and then they'd be risking the dragon losing their appetite again, or they could spend $6 at Walmart and buy the Digestive Enzyme/Probiotic tablets that my own dragon has had great success with. Those were their options. So what was the harm of trying the latter first, since the poor dragon had already basically been poisoned by so many unnecessary meds prescribed by multiple vets. So Tater I'm sorry you didn't get to read the entire thread about this dragon, nor my post prior to this one that this OP posted. Bottom Line, I was offering an alternative to the dragon's owner instead of putting her on yet another medication, which they were not happy at all about doing.

No. I didn't read the prior post (though I've skimmed it now and stand by my statements), I don't generally have the time or interest to read through pages and pages of what ends up being irrelevant conversation. This is now the discussion at hand and it seems like a good one to have, really... Maybe there was some nuance in the other posts that I missed from not reading them, but this is the internet and one of the things information does best is get taken out of context.

This is a totally different can of worms, but since you call me out by name... Yes, you are literally suggesting probiotics as an alternate treatment. Several times at that. "now their option is #1) Put the poor, sick, stressed dragon on yet another prescription medication, an antifungal, to treat the secondary fungal infection that was caused by the medications the dragon already has taken, or #2) Simply spend all of $5-$6 on some Probiotics that may not only clear up the yeast infection, but also may make the poor dragon's tummy and gut feel better and pick up her appetite..." I would assume you are suggesting to treat the fungal infection with medication OR to treat it with probiotics as a replacement treatment... because that is literally what it says here and in other posts on that thread.

I'm not doubting the benefit of probiotics and I am not attacking you as an individual. The thing is... someone reading this (maybe not even OP) will look at your credentials, your appeals to emotion and the lower price of the probiotics and decide "i will try this treatment instead, it seems to work very well, maybe even better than conventional medicine, for all these smart and experienced people. plus there are no side effects or down sides to it like there are with the harsh conventional medications." Best case is they do this with their vets supervision, worst case is they just go to walmart and skip the vet followup all together. You don't see potential for harm there?

Anyway, to the topic at hand...
How is it silly to actually have a discussion about evidence? Questions asking for evidence and data aren't hostile or defensive, they are just blunt. By suggesting that you haven't reviewed the literature and that you base your advice on 'what has worked for you' you are implying a lack of empirical evidence to your claims. This isn't saying you don't have that information, this isn't saying probiotics don't work and its not invalidating your experience; it is simply asking for something other than the word of a stranger on the internet to support a claim. Not everyone is comfortable with information and facts that they cannot evaluate. It disappointing me how often on this forum skepticism is interpreted as hostility. I can't speak for OP but when I ask for evidence and similar questions it is not directly saying "i do not believe what you say" so much as saying "this is your opportunity to educate me and others."

 

[KendrickLamar]

My beardie was on Baytril (an antibiotic) and he completely lost his appetite and started to circle the drain. It did clear up his ongoing diarrhea, thankfully. However, I had to stop the treatment half way through (with the vet's blessing) because it was so harsh on him. Months later he is still not where he was and completely refuses vegetables (he used to chow down on his veggies before).

I did a little poking around and found many anecdotal reports of reptiles dying during their Baytril treatment. I know that it could have been the infection that was being treated that killed them, but most of the reports I read seemed suspicious for the medicine causing the death rather than the illness (ie infection was minor, dragon wasn't visibly ill until taking the abx). I also noted reports of sores developing in the mouth where the antibiotic was administered.

I don't have empirical evidence but I believe stopping the course of antibiotics saved my beardie. I am thankful it cured his infection but we had to almost kill him to do it?! And now I'd be much more likely to try something that appears to be nontoxic first. This isn't to say that I won't ever administer any prescribed meds to him, but I will always strongly consider the risks first.

 

[SHBailey]

That story sounds awfully familiar. Our beardie was diagnosed with adenovirus about 3 years ago, and we did several courses of several different antibiotics with him, trying to clear up what were apparently some opportunistic infections in his elbows, wrists, and fingers. I believe they were probably all broad spectrum antibiotics because they were never able to culture anything identifiable from the goop that came from the infections. Before that, he used to attack his salad like he was afraid it was going to get away, but he lost his appetite when he got sick, and when he eventually recovered, his appetite never came back to what it was before the illness. He seems to have decided he's supposed to be a strict carnivore, so he still goes after bugs with some enthusiasm, and he also goes absolutely nuts over Repashy Grub Pie , but the only way we can get him to eat any greens at all is to slip them in his mouth while he's busy chewing on a bug. We haven't tried probiotics with him, because our reptile vet believes the jury is still out about their effectiveness in terms of empirical research, as well as about which sorts of microbes are most beneficial for which species of reptiles -- she says that many of the probiotics sold for reptiles are the same ones that are sold for humans, even though it may turn out that what's most beneficial for reptiles may be completely different than what's good for humans. She did prescribe a supplement that was supposed to help with his immune system after we'd run the gamut with the antibiotics -- monolaurin, an extract of coconut. It's supposed to be antimicrobial, and it was sold under the name "immune booster" -- tiny little pellets that I would crush up, then I'd spray a superworm with calcium spray and roll it in the powder. Our beardie will eat just about anything if I put it on a superworm. :wink: I'm not really sure how much it helped, but he did slowly recover, although his appetite and activity levels never did come back to quite what they were before the illness. There's no cure for adenovirus, but our vet says it's not a death sentence either. The strategy is to treat whatever other conditions arise ("supportive care") and just hope that their own immune system can get a handle on it. At this point, I'm still not sure if probiotics would be worth a try. I've always assumed that his slightly decreased appetite (at least for veggies) and his slightly lower activity levels are due to the fact that he's older now, as well as ADV positive, and not due to his gut flora being whacked out because of too many antibiotics, but I could be wrong... :?

 

[KendrickLamar]

We did try a couple of doses of probiotics and of bee pollen. It's been difficult to get him to eat it though. I may have seen slight improvement the first couple of days but not enough to be significant.

Were you ever able to get your beardie to eat veggies again? I feed him a slurry of it through syringe but it's not much. I am hoping he will get a taste for them at least. He will eat raspberries.

 

[phobosdthorga]

That story sounds awfully familiar. Our beardie was diagnosed with adenovirus about 3 years ago, and we did several courses of several different antibiotics with him, trying to clear up what were apparently some opportunistic infections in his elbows, wrists, and fingers. I believe they were probably all broad spectrum antibiotics because they were never able to culture anything identifiable from the goop that came from the infections. Before that, he used to attack his salad like he was afraid it was going to get away, but he lost his appetite when he got sick, and when he eventually recovered, his appetite never came back to what it was before the illness. He seems to have decided he's supposed to be a strict carnivore, so he still goes after bugs with some enthusiasm, and he also goes absolutely nuts over Repashy Grub Pie , but the only way we can get him to eat any greens at all is to slip them in his mouth while he's busy chewing on a bug. We haven't tried probiotics with him, because our reptile vet believes the jury is still out about their effectiveness in terms of empirical research, as well as about which sorts of microbes are most beneficial for which species of reptiles -- she says that many of the probiotics sold for reptiles are the same ones that are sold for humans, even though it may turn out that what's most beneficial for reptiles may be completely different than what's good for humans. She did prescribe a supplement that was supposed to help with his immune system after we'd run the gamut with the antibiotics -- monolaurin, an extract of coconut. It's supposed to be antimicrobial, and it was sold under the name "immune booster" -- tiny little pellets that I would crush up, then I'd spray a superworm with calcium spray and roll it in the powder. Our beardie will eat just about anything if I put it on a superworm. :wink: I'm not really sure how much it helped, but he did slowly recover, although his appetite and activity levels never did come back to quite what they were before the illness. There's no cure for adenovirus, but our vet says it's not a death sentence either. The strategy is to treat whatever other conditions arise ("supportive care") and just hope that their own immune system can get a handle on it. At this point, I'm still not sure if probiotics would be worth a try. I've always assumed that his slightly decreased appetite (at least for veggies) and his slightly lower activity levels are due to the fact that he's older now, as well as ADV positive, and not due to his gut flora being whacked out because of too many antibiotics, but I could be wrong... :?

I seem to have success in getting Iggy to eat/try new veggies if I put a silkworm or three on top, and on the off-chance that some veggies get into his maw at the same time, he just may start liking that veggie in turn It's worked for a few veggies now after much persistence, and I only use silkworms because he's too young for mealworms (Iggy's approximately 7 months old) right now. So maybe give that a try? Because this way, he gets the visual cues of what he's eating also which I seem to have gathered plays a large part in what they consume in their usual diet.

But yes, that's the main issue I have with these probiotics being used on reptiles and Bearded Dragons in particular, and I'm glad you were able to articulate it so well. What applies for Humans doesn't necessarily (and almost certainly not) apply to reptiles! They have far different biology and immune responses to us.

 

[AHBD]

I'm not a probiotics user but I wouldn't discount them simply because we are so different biologically. We humans and animals still both benefit from many of the same nutrients , in this case good greens + veggies. People in some cultures eat insects regularly. We both benefit from antibiotics if not given unnecessarily or for too long. Allopurinol is given for gout in humans as well as animals, including beardies. So I can see someone using probiotics for a time after a dragon has been on a long course of antibiotics.

 

[SHBailey]

No, our beardie has never gotten back to liking veggies or greens the way he used to, and he has never liked fruit or berries. We've tried mixing in some worms, but he's very good at picking out the worms without getting any of the veggies. We slip greens in his mouth when he opens it to eat a bug or drink water, and we're doing good if he doesn't spit it out. :roll: But he seems to be reasonably healthy otherwise, so whatever. Both bearded dragons and humans seem to be capable of getting by on a less than ideal diet, so we don't try to force it too much.