Questions bout my beardies?! UPDATED!

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Pleaides

Juvie Member
hello all
ive had quite some problems with both my beardies lately.firstly my girl, Venus, 2 years old.
she was diagnosed at one vets with worm eggs then diagnosed again lately with worm eggs at our current vets who are proper specialists in reptiles, i got her eating morio mealworms cos she would only eat wax worms, well shes back to eating wax worms only again and not much either and shes not eating much of her greens anymore too, the main thing with her is her hiding, she basks from time to time and am getting worried bout her, she near enuf sleeps all day, now shes been like this since august since i bought her privately from someone.
now my questions
should be be hiding near enough all the time? is it safe for her to do so? should i remove her 2 items she hides under? if so will this stress her too much as i think shes a nervy girl? and yet she never ever shows a black beard or stress marks.
how can i get her eating mealworms again rather than just wax worms, shes a large girl at 525 grams so i dont think shes going to starve anytime soon. her fat stores are good.

now my boy, Mischief, a year old this saturday.
he was diagnosed at a different vets with coccidia and worms, the worms were treated and cleared but they stated the coccidia was never that bad so wasnt treated, again hes now at our current vets along with my other reptiles and is having to undergo treatment for severe coccidiosis, hes beenon treatment since september, he also has worm eggs, which cannot be treated yet as the treatment for coccidiosis has to finish first, hopefully when he has his poop checked later this month he will get the all clear for parasites then can start treatment for worms, my concerns and questions for him are
hes been quite lethargic lately black beard probably 80% of the time, stress marks 90% of the time, just lays a lot under his log where he sleeps but he doesnt sleep during the day, just looks about, he does bask daily but no where near as much as what he used to before he was ill, is this normal behaviour for a dragon with these kind of problems? also the vets main concern at the mo is his weight, he states as long as its stable or rising he should be ok, which it is steady at the mo, dont think hes lost any and he too has good fat stores.
do you maybe think its possible the coccidia is bothering again because its coming back or maybe thats settled and its now the worm eggs bothering him because they have been left untreated for so long now?
again the same problem as my girl, he only eats wax worms, i keep on trying him with cockroaches, locusts, crickets, silk worms, butter worms, mealmorms (which he ate them all before) so how could i also get him to get something other than wax worms? he eats his greens a bit better than venus but not much. i really dont want him to have stress marks all the time i dont want him to be super unhappy.

sorry ive probably bored you with my essay, just wanted to check there ok and normal and there not going to die.
the reason ive been panicking so much is i keep having bad dreams about them (im a weirdo i know) and badthings happen, also my eldest and first ever reptile is extremely ill at the mo, hes a 11 year old corn snake, Scales and hes recently had me devastated, unconsolable and gave me a breakdown beyond belief, hes been dianosed with Pneumonia and borderline septicemia.
any input would be highly appreciated as always. :)
 

Ethelia

Extreme Poster
Hi there,

Im sorry that I wont be able to answer all your concerns. But I will try to help you with the ones that I have some knowledge of.

Firstly, wax worms.
These should absolutely not be fed as a staple feeder. These should be a treat where they are fed one or two a week. They are mostly fat and have very little nutritional value.
They are however, very tasty, so if you are offering morios or crickets AND waxworms they arent going to bother with them.
Id remove waxworms from their diet completely for now.

Id think thier diet might be a cause of they lethargy.

I hope they both improve soon.
Do keep us updated.

Holly
 

Pleaides

Juvie Member
Original Poster
thank you very much for your reply holly

i know they cannot have wax worms as a staple. when i first bought venus, the girl who owned her previously said her main diet is waxs and i said to my partner "damn shes chunky gotta get her off those" which i did for a bit but now i cannot believe both are stuck on them, i only ever did feed waxs as a treat but then they stopped eating everything esle and didnt want them to go hungry, i hate not feeding them.

so what if i stop the waxs and they dont eat nothing esle say for a week or even 3 weeks will they be ok?
they do eat a bit of greens which is good though. so how long can they go without live food? thought live food was a must in their diet? (well not waxs though) and they are under vet treatment so will that make a difference? will they be ok under treament and only eating greens?
sorry for all the questions but what with my Scales at the mo i cannot have another pet really ill. the emotional distress is a bit much.
 

Ethelia

Extreme Poster
Ah so you inherited them with a bad habit already?
It may indeed be difficult to break them from the habit, but they just wont be getting anything other than fat from those worms.
I think you need to try to take a hard line on it to break such a long habit. No more waxies.

Personally I think they will be fine without live feeders for a week or even two if they are continuing to nibble at greens.
It defintely sounds like they will have the fat pads to last them through the adjustment period.
I would offer them greens daily and try them on a few different feeders like phoenix or butterworms (sounds like they wont bother chasing crickets), and dont be suprised if they just snub all of them for a few days.

However with them being on vet treatments though Id call up and run your plans by the vet before you change their diet.

Holly
 

Pleaides

Juvie Member
Original Poster
it was only venus i bought with a bad habit, mischief always used to eat everything i gave him, im back at the vets tomorrow night with Scales so will check with the vet then about stopping the waxs altogether, every so often i do try locusts, crickets, mealies and cockroaches and they always snub them for a few days so i go back to waxs and then they always seem so so hungry, bless them!

i cant get phoenix worms here in the uk and there was one website i ever knew of that sold calci grubs (which i believe is the equivalent) but they have now closed and both didnt eat any, i ordered butter worms once and half of them were already dead and only venus would eat them so maybe ill get some for her then, but its difficult cos the only website that sells them are almost always sold out, but there really pricey also especially if those would now be all she eats so am kinda stuck at the mo.
really hope they pick up though, maybe ill see how they go with just greens and keep trying crickets, im not so sure if they will hunt them on their own either.
thanx for your help holly

anyone else have any input for me? pleeeease?
 

sunkist

Sub-Adult Member
if you go on phoenixworm.com they have a site listed for purchase of phoenix worms in the UK.
 

Pleaides

Juvie Member
Original Poster
ok may be a daft question but where abouts on that website can i order from the uk? i cant seem to find it anywhere?
 

Pleaides

Juvie Member
Original Poster
hmm n ope no help im afraid, lol
it wont let me register because i have to be a company and i am unable to e-mail them as its stating my windows dont support something or other, damn laptops, thanx anyway though.
anyone else at all with any help?
 

Pleaides

Juvie Member
Original Poster
hey wanted to bump this up cos my little mischiefs gonna be back at the vets shortly if he doesnt perk himself up soon.

ok same as my first post in this topic, now i tried weaning him off wax worms , he didnt eat live food for 9 days so tried him with phoenix worms (finally got a trial for them over here in the uk, yay!) anyway he ate one thats it, so i put a wax worm and phoenix worm in his viv, they look the same, obviously smell very differently cos he straight away gobbled up the waxie, so fed him a few more, im terrified hes gonna starve himself cos not only did he not touch live food for 9 days (before i gave in might i add) but he hasnt touched his greens at all for 4 days! hes still basking from time to time, seems to be stressed all the time, he hadnt gone a poop for a while so i gave him a bath the other day and he went so he seems a bit better after that but a couple of people have said about him brumating cos even though hes only just a year old, hes big for his age so should be treated like an adult but hes not sleeping any more than usual, he can stay in his hide in the cool end for hours, sometimes all day but he stays awake, just looking about, so when i say to people about him not eating they think hes brumating but i know hes still very interested in live food, if i put locusts, butters, mealies or crix in ther he will watch like a hawk but wont eat them apart from waxies! damn the waxies! is any of this making any sense? im sorry its all clear what i want to explain in my head.
any thoughts again on this at all?
my vets gonna start thinking im mad if i have to take him again!
 

Ethelia

Extreme Poster
If you have a clean faecal and bloods from your vet then I would just be strict with him.

I know its easier said than done but all you are doing by offering him waxies after a few days or after he tries the other worms is reinforcing that if he's stubborn and holds out, eventually he will get his own way.
I know its going to be painful and you'll think your starving him, but if his faecal and bloods are clear there isnt a risk.
Waxies are addictive and are a hard habit to break, but he is getting nothing but fat from them.

I would keep offering him new feeders everyday.
Have you tried locust/superworms on him?
To stop you worrying every 6 or so days that he doesnt eat you can syringe him some babyfood laced with vits to make sure he is still getting his vitamins.
By the sound of it he has huge fat stores so he will be fine.

I really do feel for you, when Dex wasnt eating it was a nightmare.
You can do it.

Holly
 

Pleaides

Juvie Member
Original Poster
hey holly
i know i shouldnt have given in so soon, i feel so bad!
the vet never has taken any bloods from him and the last fecal that was done showed an alarming amount of coccidia and worm eggs, he had treatment for the coccidia and now just waiting to be able to take another fecal to him to be checked its clear thats not until the 29th december, the worms have not been treated as the vet said he cannot be treated for 2 things at once in fear of overdosing, so hopefully when the coccidias clear then they can start treatment for the worm eggs. so i know for a fact that his fecal will not be clear.
 

Ethelia

Extreme Poster
Oh dear Im sorry the poor things loaded up with germs.
In which case I wouldnt feel comfortable telling you to let him go hungry whilst he is on his meds.
At this point Id ask the vet if he thinks this approach would be good or bad at this time.

If he says he's not sure Id hold off on the weening until they have a clean bill of health.

Holly
 

Pleaides

Juvie Member
Original Poster
thats what ive been worried about, lol
i think hes losing weight also, have called my vet but hes in surgery so have to call later this afternoon. and will speak to him then
we dont get superworms here i dont think.
i keep trying him with crix, locusts, butters, small mealies, phoenix and silk worms, hes seems to watch them very intently which makes me think he is somewhat interested but maybe im thinking the waxs are softer therefore easier for him to digest considering hes unwell?
i havent a clue anymore, hes going off his greens as well which is a major concern cos he always loves his rocket and gobbles it up! will keep you posted with what the vet says.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

It sounds like you have your hands full with both of them giving you grief.
Venus, at 2, if she is healthy & has had a clear fecal can brumate. She could be trying to brumate. If she is brumating, then yes, it is normal for her to hide & to sleep. However, we should go over your setup to make sure everything is all correct just to make sure she is truly brumating. What type & brand of UVB light are you using, & is it currently up to date within 6 months? Is her tank bright enough? What type of basking light are you using?
What kind of worms does she have & is she still on Panacur? If she is brumating, then, it is not a good idea to medicate a brumating dragon so you need to take the hides out so she will start trying to bask for awhile.
I would as suggested, completely cut out mealies & waxies right now. They are too fatty & not very nutritious. Sometimes when they get in the habit of eating those types of things, they just don't want anything else & will hold out for them. If you hold out on them, they will, eventually begin eating the healthier alternatives. It is hard, but it can be done.
Is she really lethargic? How lethargic? Does she appear healthy or are her eyes sunken in, or bright? Has she ever laid eggs? You said she does not have a black beard though? That is good to hear. She started getting lazy in August, really, that early?
Is she losing weight that you can tell or not?

Now to Mischief. He is 1 year so he should be starting to not eat quite as many feeders but still needs at least 50, to finish growing & filling out now. I suggest the same thing, totally cut out the mealies & the waxies right now. Go with more nutritionally sound feeders & he will eventually get off of the waxies & mealies.
What exactly were the counts of his coccidia, did they tell you? He has been on treatments since September, straight? If so, that is entirely way too long for him to be on medication & it is going to take its toll on his organs. Right now, he needs a break from that. What is the dosage for the Albon he is on?
What type of setup is he in? They are not housed together are they?
His coccidia should not be that high & something is causing his stress levels to be high which are keeping his coccidia levels to elevate. So we need to figure out what that is.
Are you using any probiotic right now to help him out? I highly recommend doing so. It helps to replace the good bacteria in his gut that the meds tend to destroy during medication rounds. It is not normal for him to be that lethargic & black bearding all of the time.
What type of lighting are you using for him? What are the temps?
If he is doing that badly, I think he needs to get a bloodtest. He has been on meds for way too long, & that concerns me. They are small animals & their organs can only take so much. That is where I would start with him, a bloodtest.
Can you post pictures of them both?

Tracie
 
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