Question for you long term owners

[Elmontare]

This may sound like a stupid question and has probably been covered already but one thing about observing a bearded dragon from a scientific point of view has always been on my mind.

I decided to set up my dragons tank two years ago so it was in full view of me when im home, except for when im in the kitchen. I figured the best way to observe and learn different behavior would be to always keep an eye on her. But i noticed as time went by my dragon is doing the same thing...she always has an eye on me, and i mean always. I know they are curious, i know there isnt anything else to look at. When we are watching tv shell turn around every 10 min or so and make eye contact, when she is out exploring shell take a few steps and turn her head back to make eye contact, when shes in her cage she is usually looking at me and at the off chance shes staring elsewhere as soon as she sees me turn my head she makes eye contact, when i walk to the kitchen her head turns to follow me. We have a good relationship from what i can tell, if she wants to sit with me she will otherwise shes free to roam and be alone and i know she gets mad when i am gone for an entire day.

So how accurate really can my observations be if she knows shes being watched? Also for the first few months and even till today i cant help but wonder if im adversly affecting her by always being around since they are a solitary animal. Anyway, just throwing this out there for peoples consideration whom have had long term experience.

 

[CooperDragon]

It's not a stupid question, it's an interesting thought. From what I've seen, they do tend to like their people. They are solitary in that they kind of hate eachother but they seem to like being around us. Cooper's tank is in the living room and right in the middle of the "action". He likes watching people and likes staring up at a photo mobile that spins near the ceiling. He is very curious and also has freedom to roam around the house. He learned to negotiate stairs pretty well too. When he goes somewhere he often looks back at me like you described. I interpreted it as him looking back to see if he was going to get into trouble for going near something he wasn't supposed to. Over time it seemed like he knew where he was supposed to go and where he wasn't supposed to go (I'd keep picking him up and moving him away). As he walked toward a place he wasn't supposed to go (the neighbor's bushes for example) he would sneak toward it slowly, stop and look back, sneak forward again, etc. and then dash to it. If he was just roaming around he didn't tend to pay much attention to me unless he wanted to be picked up. I don't think us watching them would throw off any observations. I don't think they change their behavior for the most part while being watched.

 

[Elmontare]

This link was posted by "Taterbug" in another thread and i think it applies here as well. http://m.inpractice.bmj.com/content/35/3/123.full.pdf

I hadnt ever read this before and i found it to be quite interesting. I suggest anyone who hasnt read this and is interested in more of the science rather than companionship of keeping an animal should do so. The things mentioned in that article is exactly what im worried about...

One thing that came to mind when reading this was the russian experiment to domesticate the fox.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesticated_silver_fox

With the hundreds of breaders of dragons out there and the thousands of dragons being born i find it in the realm of possibility that one day the bearded dragon will genetically change to become fully domesticated. I would think also that one day alot of the information posted here might become obsolete due to these genetic changes. I realize theres a difference between selective breeding and mass breading but given enough time and exposure to a wide range of stimuli and enviroments and even down to the food supply of dragons being more "unnatural" (think gut loading).

 

[Taterbug]

I'm glad you enjoyed that article, it's an enlightening perspective. There are some interesting publications by the RSPCA as well about some of the ethical questions we sometimes overlook regarding husbandry choices. Animals undoubtedly behave differently when observed. There is a study with the ravens comes to mind, though I want to say I've seen it mentioned regarding reptiles as well. I don't think it's inherently wrong or worrisome; so long as we understand their needs and behaviors realistically (rather than what we want them to be) and give care and housing accordingly.

I don't doubt we could domesticate reptiles given time, what worries me about dragons in that regard is the gene pool. Export from Australia has been illegal for something like 20+ years I think. Given the lack of responsibility in the breeding community at large, and the limited gene pool I fear we'd probably start seeing genetic failures before we reach something similar to domestication. The reptile industry has a penchant for vanity over health many times, unfortunately.

We give incredibly unnatural lives to many reptile pets. Ones like dragons are remarkably adaptable, Gut loading is probably one of the more natural things we do. I the wild animals are shown to self select food items based on seasonal needs or nutritional status. They may also engage in what we as keepers would consider "unhealthy" behavior such as eating dirt or feces. We've barely scratched the surface IMO.

 

[CooperDragon]

Interesting read. It was kind of general to reptiles, and dragons seem to be a bit of a standout in terms of reptile pets. A lot of what was written is similar to advice given on these forums such as no loose substrate, give plenty of space, proper heat and lighting, etc. Some of the overcrowding and impaction photos were just sad. While we don't give them a completely native environment, I feel like in general we do a decent job of meeting their needs and keeping them happy. I'm also concerned about the gene pool. Even with a limited pool to begin with, natural selection and proper breeding could produce a hearty and healthy population. Unfortunately as Taterbug said the industry seems more concerned with vanity and quantity over proper and healthy breeding. Also, keep in mind that dogs and cats have been domesticated for thousands of years while dragons have been domesticated for a very small fraction of that. To start seeing evolutionary changes will take an incredibly long time. Given how close they are to their wild ancestors, dragons are incredibly adaptable and make very good pets!

 

[Taterbug]

Why do you say dragons are a stand out?

 

[Elmontare]

Dogs and cats may have been dimesticated for thousands of years (many tens of thousands according to some reports of burial sites) but it would difficult to say how long it took to reach domestication. Thats why i included the russian experiment, less than 50 years worth of generations until the first genetic changes took place. Granted those were selective breeds based on behavior. I also agree that it seems most breeders of dragons breed for color or pattern...but in alot of species color formations are superior in natural selection. Does this mean that the genes for color absolutly mark other traits in domestication? Maybe, maybe not. The effect of altering one gene undoubtly affects a wide range of other genes otherwise it would be a simple matter of eliminating all genetic based diseases. Its equally possible that breeding a dragon based on health risks could lead to a less domesticated version...

 

[Elmontare]

Why do you say dragons are a stand out?

I would also like to know why you say that

 

[CooperDragon]

I said they are a standout because they are relatively low maintenance compared to other reptiles. They seem to be able to handle a wider range of environments. Essentially their relative ease of care and durability.

 

[Elmontare]

I decided to run a little experiment (very unscientific) for the last week. My original concern was the amount of time my beardie spends watching me while im at home. Its hard to tell from 15ft away exactly what part of me shes looking at but based on the times when we are sitting together she seems to look at my face (unless my hands move suddenly). I assume this is an instinct common to alot of animals.

So i set up a barrier roughly halfway between her encloser and my couch which blocked my head only from view when she is perched on her basking spot. She knows that im there from the rest of my body but she cant make eye contact. Up until this point she had a fairly regular routine of eating, basking, pooping, and seemed to be in good health.

Ive noticed now that shes been spending about half the amount of time basking (i have no actual numbers) and has been sitting on the cool side of her enclosure where she can see me much more throughout the day. Shes been much more lethargic and her routine is quite disrupted (everything youd expect from not basking enough).

Ive read before that they can be affected by changes in the room but ive decided to rule this out considering theres always stuff being changed around in my livingroom. Im going to take the barrier away tomorrow and see what happens. Like i said its not all that scientific, wasnt run very long, and i have no actual data, but im getting the impression she was better off when she could see my face all day (either to keep an eye on the potential predetor or to take comfort that her slave is alert for her needs).

 

[KarenInCA]

It's also possible that she wants the stimulation of contact (in this case eye contact). And she is used to a lot of contact in your case. So depriving her of that, could change her own behavior. Our dragon does not get the contact during the week day and by the time I get home, he is a bit tired and lethargic, unless I put some good food in front of him, or take him outside. Then the contact with nature awakens him. During the weekends, I spend a lot of day time with him, and he seems much more content and happy just having us in the house. I think all animals want some kind of interaction with other animals...or maybe expect it.