Puking and Parasitic

[littlebirdy]

First, the stats:
Name: Clovis
Tank: 75 gallon
Substrate: Newspaper and paper towels, eventually moving to tile
Temperatures: 100-120 on basking side (130 on the hottest part of his stick), 80s on cool side, 70s at night via temp gun.
Basking light: 75 watt plant bulb
UVB: 36 inch Reptisun 10 tube, can get 6-8 inches from it if he climbs on his stick
Lights on from 7am-8:45pm on a timer, misses about an hour and a half of that time for snuggles and floor time
Diet: collards/endive/cactus + spaghetti squash/butternut squash/acorn squash + juvenile beardie pellets and dried crics if I can find them again (he actually does eat them) in the mornings after lights have been on for about an hour, buggies in the evening, 40 large crickets or 25ish supers. We just ordered Reptiworms, since he liked Phoenix worms but they came in smaller quantities. Sometimes I dust his greens with calcium but I don't think he likes the soggy dust. His bugs are dusted 5x/week. He gets vitamin dust twice a week.
Poop: Usually in the mornings during his first hour with lights on, usually excretes a lot of water with it. He will usually poop a second time during the afternoon. Notice an undigested worm sometimes in poop, and when I gave him minced squash I noticed some squash chunks in his poo as well.
Hydration: Mist veggies daily, mist him whenever, water dish in tank (very shallow, changed every 1-2 days), 10-15 minute soak every five days or so
Age: Unknown. Still a juvie.
Length: 13 inches
Weight: Between 250-300 grams

We took Clovis to the vet Wednesday and his fecal was positive for pinworms and flagellates. He was also a bit dehydrated. Everything else was fine, good weight and range of motion and so forth. We started giving him Panacur. Thursday he only ate 2-3 supers and didn't touch his salad. Usually he rips into his squash, and the day before had taken out 25 supers. I wasn't super-worried because I know Panacur can affect appetite and we have some Carnivore Care left over from Bowser (whom we lost to parasites) in a pinch. Well, this morning he started opening his mouth and shaking his head, and then he spewed undigested supers all over his viv. It looked to me like more than he had eaten the previous day. I know things are moving because he pooped twice before barfing and left two urates in the tub. (Doc recommended a daily 30 minute soak, of which he's had 3 since Wednesday.) Energy levels have been normal; he was running around the glass door to our little balcony like usual today.

My questions:
1. Should I take him back to the vet? (He hasn't barfed again and I'm inclined not to take him unless he does, because vet visits are expensive. However, my husband and I would be devastated to lose another beardie so soon after losing Bowser in November.)
2. Should I start force-feeding him? How many days should I let him go without eating anything? He's going to shed his head soon, so that may be affecting his appetite as well.
3. Could Panacur or parasites have caused the barfing? I offered him dandelion greens yesterday, which is the only new thing he's had in the past week, but I don't think he ate any salad.

 

[Beardednoob]

First, the stats:
Name: Clovis
Tank: 75 gallon
Substrate: Newspaper and paper towels, eventually moving to tile
Temperatures: 100-120 on basking side (130 on the hottest part of his stick), 80s on cool side, 70s at night via temp gun. This is too hot, the max you want his basking temperature is 110 degrees Fahrenheit.
Basking light: 75 watt plant bulb
UVB: 36 inch Reptisun 10 tube, can get 6-8 inches from it if he climbs on his stick
Lights on from 7am-8:45pm on a timer, misses about an hour and a half of that time for snuggles and floor time
Diet: collards/endive/cactus + spaghetti squash/butternut squash/acorn squash + juvenile beardie pellets and dried crics if I can find them again (he actually does eat them) in the mornings after lights have been on for about an hour, buggies in the evening, 40 large crickets or 25ish supers. We just ordered Reptiworms, since he liked Phoenix worms but they came in smaller quantities. Sometimes I dust his greens with calcium but I don't think he likes the soggy dust. His bugs are dusted 5x/week. He gets vitamin dust twice a week. 25 supers a day? That would be over doing it. I suggest cutting this down to 10-15 every other day..at the most. There is one thing about the meal worm family a lot of people don't think about. When we think this particular family we think possible impaction but, there is also a risk of hypervitaminosis A too.
Poop: Usually in the mornings during his first hour with lights on, usually excretes a lot of water with it. He will usually poop a second time during the afternoon. Notice an undigested worm sometimes in poop, and when I gave him minced squash I noticed some squash chunks in his poo as well. You can try shredding the squash instead of mincing it. Also are you dusting his food?
Hydration: Mist veggies daily, mist him whenever, water dish in tank (very shallow, changed every 1-2 days), 10-15 minute soak every five days or so Instead of misting I feel it is better to bath 10-15 minutes 2-3 times a week.
Age: Unknown. Still a juvie.
Length: 13 inches
Weight: Between 250-300 grams That is a pretty hefty 13 inches

We took Clovis to the vet Wednesday and his fecal was positive for pinworms and flagellates. He was also a bit dehydrated. Everything else was fine, good weight and range of motion and so forth. We started giving him Panacur. Thursday he only ate 2-3 supers and didn't touch his salad. Usually he rips into his squash, and the day before had taken out 25 supers. I wasn't super-worried because I know Panacur can affect appetite and we have some Carnivore Care left over from Bowser (whom we lost to parasites) in a pinch. Well, this morning he started opening his mouth and shaking his head, and then he spewed undigested supers all over his viv. It looked to me like more than he had eaten the previous day. I know things are moving because he pooped twice before barfing and left two urates in the tub. (Doc recommended a daily 30 minute soak, of which he's had 3 since Wednesday.) Energy levels have been normal; he was running around the glass door to our little balcony like usual today.

My questions:
1. Should I take him back to the vet? (He hasn't barfed again and I'm inclined not to take him unless he does, because vet visits are expensive. However, my husband and I would be devastated to lose another beardie so soon after losing Bowser in November.)
2. Should I start force-feeding him? How many days should I let him go without eating anything? He's going to shed his head soon, so that may be affecting his appetite as well.
3. Could Panacur or parasites have caused the barfing? I offered him dandelion greens yesterday, which is the only new thing he's had in the past week, but I don't think he ate any salad.

Are you using a probiotic or prebiotic during the time you are using the Panacur. Try using some soy yogurt (I was never able to find so i substituted with a all natural probiotic yogurt <- not recommended but, I was reaching for anything. Panacur is a rather harsh antibiotic/parasite treatment and you should find something to counteract the loss of natural (good) gut flora. You may also try ReptAid, this product works very well in providing hydration and a natural energy supplement which is needed for the recovery process, without energy they can get lame and not have an appetite of their own. Also try to syringe feed baby food with some calcium supplement in it, while not eating properly he still needs his calcium and baby food is often times too tempting for a dragon to pass up. I recommend the squash flavor.

 

[littlebirdy]

Vet tech said that babyfood could make him puke again because he hasn't had it before, but I think he'd be fine with some squash flavor. I'll get some tomorrow. He's still not eating and I'm getting worried. I'm glad he's hefty, because he's probably losing weight! I dust his feeders, not his salads. I'll mix some calcium dust with the babyfood though, because he hasn't had any for a couple of days. I might try to puree some squash with water as well.
I looked for soy yogurt at the grocery store today and came up empty. Is the kind made for dogs okay to give to reptiles? That's the only kind coming up on Petsmart's website.

 

[Beardednoob]

Vet tech said that babyfood could make him puke again because he hasn't had it before, but I think he'd be fine with some squash flavor. I'll get some tomorrow. He's still not eating and I'm getting worried. I'm glad he's hefty, because he's probably losing weight! I dust his feeders, not his salads. I'll mix some calcium dust with the babyfood though, because he hasn't had any for a couple of days. I might try to puree some squash with water as well.
I looked for soy yogurt at the grocery store today and came up empty. Is the kind made for dogs okay to give to reptiles? That's the only kind coming up on Petsmart's website.

I need to correct a previous statement, ReptAid is an alternative to using drugs to treat for parasites not a probiotic, sorry for the false information but, I have corrected that. Instead of using a yogurt you may be able to find Benebac more available to you, you should be able to find it online or at any pet shop that sells birds.
http://www.google.com/products/catalog?q=benebac&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=2759446139264620645&ei=fPYfTYqiN5K6sQOklKDBCg&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=image&resnum=4&ved=0CDIQ8gIwAw#

http://www.reptaid.com/reptaidadministergeckos.htm
That page is for geckos but, gives some good information on the product.

On the other hand there is also Repta Aid which can provide hydration and essential calories to your dragon.
http://www.flukerfarms.com/emergencycriticalcare.aspx

wheew lol thats cleared up. :shock:

 

[littlebirdy]

I will definitely try and get a hold of some of that. He is pooping every day still despite only eating the squash particles and Panacur that I shove in his mouth, so I am thinking that he may be nibbling his salad behind my back. I haven't seen him really eat since Thursday.

 

[AHBD]

Mystery solved....did you say he ate 25 superworms ? Even though beardies love them, at 13" he is WAY too small for 25 of them. Very few adults could eat 25 without puking them up. Even 10-15 is too many at that size.Stick with the crickets, and give only a few supers at a time until he's bigger. After they puke from supers, they are off food for a few days. Hope fully he'll feel better and start chomping again. That is if the meds. don't put him off his food, too.

 

[Jess]

Yeah, I would definately cut down on the supers. No dragon should be having any more than 15 a day, especially at 13"!
Did he bask very long after he ate? Once, after Wink ate a dozen supers, I took him out for cuddling and he didnt get enough basking time... He puked up all of his supers over night. I sure learned my lesson!
I wouldnt get too worried though.

 

[littlebirdy]

Whooooopsie! I had no idea that supers could make them barf like that, or that more than a couple were bad for him. I just measured and he's about 14 inches with a tail nip, so I thought it would be okay. Why on earth didn't the vet tech tell me this? I adore you people. <3 <3 <3

He just ate 4 on his own before I read this, so I hope that's okay. Supers are all we have atm and I was honestly expecting to have to go for the Carnivore Care again because he hasn't been eating. His lights are on for 2 more hours, so I'll leave him under there to bask. We ordered Reptiworms Thursday or Friday to try as a new staple, so hopefully they will get here soon! We have a one bedroom apartment, so crickets are difficult to keep. If his appetite doesn't slow down I may start a small dubia colony.

Thanks again for the info about the supers. I'll stop by Petsmart and get him crickets until the Reptiworms arrive.

 

[AHBD]

That's a good idea, keep crix AND supers. If you feed the superworms 3 at a time twice a day you can usually get away with it. More of them as he grows. And lots of greens. By the way, if his appetite is back, that's GREAT....always a good sign !

 

[littlebirdy]

First bugs since Thursday! I hope that means the parasites are gone and his tummy is settled. I definitely won't be letting him gorge on supers anymore!

 

[Beardednoob]

Mystery solved....did you say he ate 25 superworms ? Even though beardies love them, at 13" he is WAY too small for 25 of them. Very few adults could eat 25 without puking them up. Even 10-15 is too many at that size.Stick with the crickets, and give only a few supers at a time until he's bigger. After they puke from supers, they are off food for a few days. Hope fully he'll feel better and start chomping again. That is if the meds. don't put him off his food, too.

Wow, I missed that 13inches and supers.. hmm Good catch. :wink:

 

[littlebirdy]

I tried to get him crickets today and the guy at the pet store was like, "Don't give him bugs until he's been dewormed for a week, just give him greens, crickets have parasites, mealworms are awesome, etc." I did not feel particularly like arguing, so I gave him a couple of mealworms tonight and tricked him into eating a bite of squash and greens. He had some pellets and squash on his face when I got home, so I think he got into his salad at some point today. I don't even know what to think or do anymore. I hope our Reptiworms get here soon and that his fecal tomorrow evening is clean.

 

[AHBD]

Don't worry too much, give him the supers 3-4 at a time in the a.m, then again between 3-6 p.m. And that's good you tricked him into eating greens...a good way to do that is to mix some wiggly superworms in with his salad, he'll be attracted by the movement. As far as worms being parasite free compared to the crix, I don't know about that. But he'll be fine on the supers, just not so many at a time. He's of good weight anyway.