Possible parasites, Cannot go to vet, need home remedies.

[EllenD]

Quite honestly, I don't think this is necessarily parasites at all, and automatically medicating him with a harsh medication is not the right answer anyway, at all costs you should always try to NOT give your Dragon medications. Smelly bowel movements are NOT always a sign of parasites at all, and runny or watery bowel movements are caused by a million different reasons, so don't yourself hung-up on "He definitely has parasites", or even if he does have parasites, that doesn't mean he needs medicine...

The questions you need to be asking yourself are #1) Is he eating normally, is his appetite normal? and #2) Is he at all lethargic, sleeping a lot more than usual, or avoiding his lights? IF the answer to either of these questions is No, then he most likely doesn't have a high-enough parasitic count that he needs a medication.

The two most common parasites that Dragons get are #1) Pinworms, which is usually treated with Panacur, and #2) Coccidia, which are Protozoa, and should be treated with Toltrazuril (never allow your Dragon to be given Albon for Coccidia, it's a Sulfa Drug that makes that not only is ineffective and usually takes multiple rounds, but makes them very sick)...

Bearded Dragons, all Dragons, at any given time, usually have one or the other of these two parasites throughout their GI Tracts in low to moderate counts/loads, and even so the Dragons are just fine. This is because if your Dragon is healthy then his Immune System will keep these in-check. If you told me that your Dragon had lost his appetite, wasn't eating normally or at all, and was very lethargic, sleeping more than usual and not basking, then I would tell you that he needs a fecal test because he may have a parasitic infection in High Counts, and probably needs to be medicated...But that's not the situation I don't think, doesn't sound like it. And it's also important to know that Panacur does not "kill" Pnworms, it simply makes the females sterile and then serves to flush them from their GI Tracts, which you can accomplish at home with some fiber and herbs. And if he had a high level of Coccidia, he'd most likely not be eating and he'd be acting like he's sickly.

*****Very important misconception that you wrote, about his "stress marks", by this I'm assuming that you're talking about the markings on his belly...Well that's exactly what they are, that's ALL they are, they are markings on his belly, just like the rest of the markings all over his body. They do not at all represent "stress" or anything else, other than he's darkening himself because he's trying to absorb more light/heat. If you haven't yet noticed, when you Dragon is inside his tank, that's typically when his colors are darker, and when you take him out of his tank he immediately lightens right up, unless you put him near a window or outside in the sun. That's because he has lights over his tank and he's trying to absorb as much light/heat as he can. But when you take him out of his tank there are no longer lights, so he doesn't need to be dark anymore...And also, when he gets a warm bath he's probably very light, that's because he's very warm from the water and needs no more heat. So the bottom line to this point is 2 things: #1) He has no "stress marks" at all, that's an internet myth, the same as "they absorb water/hydration through their vents and/or their skin/scales by soaking in water", that's totally untrue as well, they only get hydration the way we do, through their mouths....and then #2) My guess is that his Basking Spot Surface Temperature, which absolutely CANNOT BE MEASURED with any type of Stick-On Thermometer, is probably too low!

Do you have either a Temperature Gun or a Digital Thermometer with a Probe on a Wire to measure his Basking Spot Temperature with? If he's under a year old, then his Basking Spot Surface Temperature must be between 105-110 degrees F, and if he's a year old or older it must be between 100-105 degrees F, or he cannot properly digest his food, nor will he have normal bowel movements...This may very well be the reason he's having the bowel movements he is, that and he's eating a lot of veggies/greens and fruits, especially the fruits you are feeding him. So if you are relying on only a Stick-On Thermometer that is located in the Hot Side of his tank, then that is not at all his Basking Spot Temperature that you're reading, but rather his Hot Side Air/Ambient Temperature, which should be between 88-93 degrees F. So if you're actually reading higher than 93 degrees F on a Stick-On Thermometer in the Hot Side of his tank, that means that his temperature zones are way too hot, because naturally the Surface Temperature of his basking spot/platform is going to be higher than the Hot Side Air Temperature surrounding it...This can cause as many issues as having a Basking Spot Surface Temperature that is too low can, such as severe Dehydration, Heat Exhaustion, and permanent issues regulating their body temperature. So the bottom line is that if you are only using Stick-On Thermometers, you absolutely must spend $10 at any Petco or really any pet store and buy a Digital Thermometer that has a Probe on a Wire, and you must set the Probe directly on his Basking Spot/Platform (that should be located within the Hot Side of his tank, directly underneath both his UVB tube and his bright-white colored Basking Bulb). Allow the Probe to sit on the Basking Platform for at least 20 minutes, or until the temperature on the Digital Thermometer stops rising...THIS IS THE ACTUAL BASKING SPOT SURFACE TEMPERATURE, WHICH NEEDS TO BE BETWEEN 100-105 DEGREES F IF HE'S OVER A YEAR OLD...*******This is not optional when owning a Desert Reptile, and is a much better use of money than ordering parasitic medications online that he most likely doesn't need.

*****Fruit is nothing but water and sugar, and sugar is very bad for Dragons, so if you're giving him any fruit more than twice a week than you definitely need to cut that back, this is contributing to the runny, watery, smelly bowel movements for sure. The other BIG issue is giving him 6 or 7 Superworms in one sitting, that's WAY TOO MANY SUPERWORMS!!! These are his problems, his diet and temperature zones, not parasites! Superworms are NOT a "Staple" Feeder Insect, they are loaded, absolutely loaded with fat, and if you're giving him 6 or 7 Superworms at one time this is absolutely going to mess up his bowel movements. You need to be feeding him either Crickets, Dubia Roaches or another species of Roaches, Phoenix Worms/BSFL/NutriGrubs/CalciWorms/ReptiWorms (all the same thing, just different Brand Names), or SilkWorms as his regular, daily live insects. At most you should only give him 1 or 2 Superworms as a SUPPLEMENT to the healthy, Staple Insect that is high in Protein and low in Fat....Not only is feeding him so many Superworms causing the bowel movement issues, but he's very likely going to end-up with Fatty Liver Disease very young if you don't stop it soon...

So these are the things you need to correct FIRST, before medicating him for parasites that he likely doesn't need to be medicated for....

 

[DudeSkull]

Holy cow that was a lot of info to take in! I want to apologize for being really misinformed, it seems the facts are always changing, I read like, last year that that amount of worms was acceptable and I will cut down ASAP, as WELL as the fruits I give him.

I also didn’t realize the thermometer I have was awful until I had already bought it, and I’ve already realized how cruddy it is and should have brand new ones in the mail very very soon. As for his temperature, if his bulb turns out to be too hot/cold, then I can return it because unlike my mistake with the thermometer, I actually got the receipt!

As for legarthy, appetite, etc. he is quite inconsistent with both. Yesterday after I gave him his salad he ate none, took that puddle of crap in the middle of the cage, then promptly hecked right off to bed under his log, and this was at noon which was a little weird. He’s doing better today and ate half of his salad.

And the stress marks, I honestly never read anything about them being a misconception, I guess that’s what you meant about it being common. I honestly feel like I have to apologize for that. I just keep reading whatever I can and everything seems to tell me something different. I plan on switching to crickets or Phoenix worms soon, and I’ll only give him fruit like, every other week.

I’m conflicted a bit on the parasites thing, it feels like I have a bunch of people telling me different things and it’s overwhelming to say the least, but I’ll try my absolute darnest regardless! I Actually was stupid enough to stink that he had watery poops because he wasn’t having enough worms at some point, I’m really sorry and I cannot thank you enough for setting me straight. It shouldn’t even be your job to do that, it’s my fault for not knowing that on my own.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I am glad you were able to get the thermometer ordered, that will really help out a lot.
How is he doing today?
Superworms are fine as a staple, but not just solely fed. I have fed crickets & superworms
for years, with no issues at all. I breed them & they get organic feed so they are very healthy
so no need to stop feeding them altogether. They are a very good food source, actually.
Everything in moderation, balance is the key. In the wild, they eat grubs which have fat or
other insects when are not exactly what we feed them here. Just keep with variety & he will
be just fine.
Switching up greens is always a good idea just to be sure they get a good mix from time to
time.
When they are darker than normal, all of the time, it can definitely indicate stress. Or if they
are not warm enough & are trying to absorb heat their entire body is usually darker. Has his
beard been darker than normal?
No worries, there is a lot of bad information out there, including in the pet stores, too.

Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

 

[DudeSkull]

Oh jeez I don't know what to believe anymore, lol!

Felix is doing pretty good atm, he hasn't pooped yet, probably because he skipped out on salad yesterday. I Gave him his salad this morning and he wouldn't eat and it gave me a bit of a scare, but I was delighted to see after I got back from the gym a few hours ago he has cleaned his plate, which is rare seeing he usually only eats half. Might be, again, from skipping food yesterday. Just to avoid any misunderstandings, I didn't skip feeding him, I gave him his food he just didn't eat it.

The marks on his stomach arent pitch black but they're certainly there. They're all on his stomach, tail, and beard. I'd say they're like, a medium grey. I never see him without them unless he is sleeping. He hasn't been much darker which is making me think his bulb is too hot. I haven't seen him in his basking spot in a few days and he's started preferring using his half log as a basking spot which is much more below the bulb. I'll know for sure once the thermometer comes in.

I'm sorry if I've just been over reacting. I'm very inexperienced at lizard owning (Or more like being owned by a lizard), despite not being very new to it. I got felix in junior high and gave him up about a year later to my sibling because I wasn't giving him the attention he needed. I only recently took him back after noticing he was being neglected by my sibling too, and he was under his care for awhile (I'm almost done with highschool, if that'll give you a good idea with how long its been). I'm trying to make up or it and improve from how I used to be as hard as I possibly can!

 

[PodunkKhaleesi]

I don’t think the message thus far has been “he’s definitely got parasites. Pump him full of meds pronto.” The goal is always to look at every element related to husbandry first, as diet or incorrect temperatures can present symptoms reminiscent of parasites, so that’s why a vet should only be consulted if the temps, diet, and UV is perfect and the symptoms don’t relent/become worse. I’m not a big believer in throwing meds at beardies unless absolutely necessary. I’ve had beardies test positive for a low parasite count, which is considered normal, and therefore medication wasn’t needed. It was only when a beardie had extremely high levels of parasites that medication was required. It’s important to find a reptile vet that takes a less is more approach and medicates only when it’s vital. So the vet recommendation was assuming that:
1. All cage temperatures were actually measured and are correct
2. The UV light is up to snuff
3. Any dietary factors were ruled out
4. The symptoms are consistent and worrisome. We’re talking bowel movements with really strong odors, lethargy, no interest in basking, appetite loss, etc. If there are other symptoms beyond just how runny the bowel movements are, this would be a stronger sign of illness (my beardie with the extremely high coccidia count/high pinworm count also had a low appetite and was very sluggish. This, in conjunction with the fact that her bowel movements had an odor so strong they were gag inducing were what signaled that something was very wrong).
If your beardie is otherwise very energetic, basks frequently, and has a healthy appetite, then this still might just come down to an environmental or dietary issue. It sounds like your beardie’s been eating regularly, which is a good sign. If things are getting worse and you do wind up seeing a vet, as one member very wisely suggested, you can always ask for a coccidia or pinworm count, share that information here, and I’m sure one of the members with medical experience can help advise on whether medication is truly necessary if the vet suggests a treatment. Some medications are much better than others. Anyway, you know your beardie and his personality and behaviors best so ultimately you’re the best judge on how abnormal his current situation is. I don’t regret taking my beardie to the vet and administering medication when she was very sick, but I’ve also encountered vets that were eager to medicate perfectly healthy animals, which was alarming. So it never hurts to get a second opinion before giving medication to an animal.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Let us know how your boy is doing! It sounds like you are doing a great job with him & doing
your best taking care of him & getting him what he needs. Thanks for taking over on his care,
I know he will appreciate it.

Tracie

 

[DudeSkull]

Hello,

Let us know how your boy is doing! It sounds like you are doing a great job with him & doing
your best taking care of him & getting him what he needs. Thanks for taking over on his care,
I know he will appreciate it.

Tracie

Hi Tracie, Felix seems to be doing pretty good right now, which is giving me hope that this will be easier and less costly than a vet visit. As I type he's up on his basking hammock, I gave him his salad but he seems uninterested at the moment. I'd post a picture of him but I'm not entirely sure how, but once I figure it out I will. He still hasn't pooped just yet but its only noon, so he SHOULD soon. I gave him a warm bath last night to get some blackberry stains off of him. I don't think he knows he's supposed to eat them and not step in them.

Thank you for the reassuring words and advice, it really does give me alot of motivation I didn't have before. His thermometers will come in tomorrow, and I'll post his basking spot temps as soon as possible!

 

[EllenD]

First of all don't ever apologize for not knowing something, you're completely correct that there is a ton of different information all over the place, and it's hard to know what is correct and what's not. I hate to say this, but in-general the information given by pet shop employees is horrible, I don't know why they don't get any training but in-general they don't. I hear a lot of people say that "Pet shop employees just want to sell what they can make the most money on", however I don't think most Petco or PetSmart employees are paid any sort of commissions, I think it definitely has more to do with a total lack of training and education. You just have to take what they tell you with a grain of salt, they aren't all bad, usually the employees that own Dragons or whatever animal you're talking about are just fine. But they are the minority.

As far as the Superworms go, Tracie and I both said basically the same thing, I also have fed Superworms as a supplement to the main staple insect, which for me are BSFL/Phoenix Worms, but only along with the other healthier insects as a supplement, and only 1-2 at a time. It's actually a much larger issue with Dragons that are babies/juveniles, as they usually have a lot of problems digesting their shells. Superworms are much better for them than something like Mealworms, which I don't see any value in at all for Dragons, just my own opinion, they are low in protein, very high in fat, and pretty much nothing but very hard, chitlin shell. Superworms are not the same as mealworms, they do have some nutritional value, but you can't give them large quantities of them alone everyday, too much fat...The BSFL are excellent, as are Crickets, Dubia Roaches, and Silkworms, those are the insects you want to feed him in high quantities.

And I'll apologize too, in response to the "Take him to the vet and medicate him immediately" comment, I never said that this was what was being said, I was simply trying to give the OP a heads-up, as unfortunately it is true that the majority of Vets that see reptiles in this country choose to run no diagnostic tests at all except possibly a fecal test, and as soon as they see ANY positive result for any parasite they automatically want to medicate. They don't tend to look at the count/load or the behavior of the Dragon...And i'll be honest, in the past couple of months we've had several Dragons who were literally killed by unqualified Exotics vets who medicated Dragons for parasites that were not at all ill, they were simply having routine "wellness check-ups" that included a fecal test, and they tested positive for low counts of pinworms, coccidia, or both. In one case the Exotics Vet gave the healthy, active, 2 month old Dragon Ivermectin for Pinworms, which is a poison and should not ever be given to any reptiles because it causes kidney failure, as it did when it killed the Dragon I'm talking about. The other case was the same situation, but the young Dragon tested positive for low counts of both Coccidia and Pinworms, and even though he was not exhibiting any symptoms of illness at all, the Exotics vet gave him both Panacur for the Pinworms and then Albon for the Coccidia, and then Cipro "Just in case" he had a bacterial infection too (I don't have any idea why he did this, he didn't run any cultures or have any reason to think the Dragon had a bacterial infection at all), and this Dragon too died of kidney failure within a week. Then add the literally dozens of Dragons in both the ER and the Health section that have been made very ill for a long, long time due to either medicating when it was unnecessary, overmedicating, or medicating with dangerous medications, and I've recently lost my faith in "Exotics" Vets...

I don't think I was wrong in saying "If you take your Dragon to a Vet and they ask no questions about your husbandry or diet at all, you need to find a new Vet"...I'll definitely stick by that statement, especially if the vet diagnoses the Dragon with MBD and gives him a Calcium injection, puts him on liquid Calcium, yet doesn't even mention the Dragon's UVB light situation...

****That all being said, there are some very effective, holistic parasite treatments that you can give him at home...They are not only safe and effective, but they don't tend to make them sick or cause them to lose their appetites. I think Tracie know exactly what herbs should be given, I know that Mint is one of them that works very, very well, and I also believe that Basil is another one. It's much better in my opinion to try these first before medicating him with harsh meds that cause serious illness...And let me just point out that I have a medical education and experience background and used to ALWAYS suggest immediately that people take their Dragons to a Certified Reptile Vet or experienced Reptile Specialist, get the proper diagnostic tests done, and get them put on the correct prescription meds...A year ago I would have NEVER suggested using Raw, Unpasteurized Honey over an Antibiotic...I've done a complete 180 in my beliefs based on what I've seen happening in the past year to many, many pet Dragons by medicine-happy Exotics Vets. I'm tired of seeing Dragons being made sick or dying unnecessarily, along with heart-broken owners...

 

[DudeSkull]

I found out how to upload pictures! Heres a few pictures of Felix.

He's a brat but I love him, I was trying to entice him into eating his greens but he just wanted to eat my fingers instead. You can probably see his current thermometer, which I'm gonna throw out as soon as the new one comes in.

Also, he finally pooped and its honestly looking alot better, still smelled like a fart but it wasn't a puddle like before. Shield your eyes!

Does this look normal for a beardie? Its certainty holding its shape better than any of his other poops. For the for the past few days I've been giving him salad with no carrots and no fruits, and recently cut down on his superworms like suggested. The beautiful dragons nutritional chart had a link to www.phoenixworm.com and a cup of 100 large phoenixwoms goes for about 8 bucks, which is pretty good actually. Once this cup of supers is almost out I'll see to ordering some of those, maybe even the small ones and gutload them myself.

And yeah, I'm pretty wary of vets too, I've heard plenty of horror stories. I HAVE seen this supplements around that you can give beardies that are anti-parasitic and have vitamins and whatnot, but I cannot for the life of me remember the name :/

 

[EllenD]

That bowel movement looks completely normal. The water that came out with it is clear and looks good, that's just an indication that Felix is very well-hydrated, which is a good thing! That bowel movement is perfect, nothing wrong at all...

 

[karlys]

Hi,

Just for future reference, I wouldn't take him to that clinic you posted. When I first got my beardie, he had very bad bloating and I took him there based on Yelp/Google reviews because they're very positive. However, they tried to tell me that I was feeding him too much (2-3x a day, as much as he'd eat) and that he was probably just fat but that they'd do the fecal anyway. They also didn't know that the lighting I was using was bad and I had to find out on here about that. My little guy had coccidia and they wanted me to give him the harsh medicine for 2 weeks, even though it's usually effective after 2-3 doses.

I wouldn't say they were a bad place because everyone was very nice and tried to be helpful but they were just very misinformed about beardies. When our other beardie got sick, we took him to AZ Exotic Animal Hosptial and I was happy with them.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

That's great, Felix seems to be feeling better. He looks good!
Are you referring to Parazap? It is an all natural dewormer that has wormwood & a few
other more natural ingredients in it. I have not used it but know people who have & it
basically has no side effects.
I'm glad you got a new thermometer ordered & hope it gets there soon.
Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

 

[DudeSkull]

Thermometers arrived today and after setting it up and letting it sit for a good few hours, the temperature seems to jump around between 102.5F and 104.5F for his basking spot. It currently reads 104F. This seems to be a reasonable temperature for an adult bearded dragon yeah?

Felix also took another poop just like the one he took yesterday so I think it’s safe to assume this was a diet issue and not a parasite one, seeing as his poops got better after I started cutting out the fruits and carrots. Will probably reintroduce butternut squash and maybe have him try some endive or something new!

Also we ordered an adult bearded dragon bug variety pack from Dubiaroaches.com so we can test what Felix likes better, it comes with a small amount of Dubias, Phoenix worms, hornworms, and superworms. I’ve fed Felix hornworms before and I’m sure they’re something you need to feed as a snack mostly right? Either way I’m excited to make him try some new tasty bugs! Plus I found the supplement I mentioned, it’s called “Reptiaid”, but I’m a little wary as one of the Amazon reviews claims that it killed their pet.

I think this rules out parasites then? I’m really sorry if I overreacted and jumped to the worst conclusion, I really hope I didn’t waste your guys time! This was still very helpful for me and Felix though and we’re both grateful!!!

 

[PodunkKhaleesi]

Between 95 and 105 are ideal basking temps for adults, so that’s great that your temps wound up being within that range. The photo of the last bowel movement actually looked really good (with many parasites, you’ll find a visual that’s a bit more disturbing). Sometimes my beardies can have bowel movements on the watery side when hornworms are given out a little too liberally (they’re great treats but they do have a very high moisture content). You’ll learn through trial and error which foods your beardie is more sensitive to. The Beautiful Dragons website has a great nutrition chart for both insects and greens/veggies. Many of the staples aren’t like as likely to cause overly watery bowel movements (vs. treats like fruit).
If an urgent medical issue does ever arise and a vet is necessary, you can find a verified herp vet here: http://www.anapsid.org/vets/
Glad it looks like it was just a dietary issue. Sometimes the way beardies show that they’re extremely well hydrated isn’t the most pleasant visual.

 

[EllenD]

It sounds like he's doing just fine and you've got the temperature zones and the lighting all straightened out...As long as his Basking Spot Surface Temperature stays between 100-105 degrees F he's good, with an Air/Ambient temperature on the Cool Side that is no higher than 80 degrees F. That's also important, as he must always have a cool side to go and cool down.

His bowel movements are just fine, no parasites at all, as indicative by no lack of appetite, no lethargy, no black beard, and normal fecal matter/urates. Like I said, seeing some excess clear water in his bowel movements is a good thing, it means that he's well-hydrated. The main reason to only feed a Dragon fruits 2-3 times a week at the very most isn't because of the excess water, it's because of the high sugar content...Excess water is never a bad thing.

For future reference, if he loses his appetite, becomes sleepy/lethargic and avoids his lights, has a black-beard that isn't related to seeing his reflection in the glass or being outside or scared of anything (basically if he's just laying there, sleeping or not moving around with a black beard), these are indicative that he's not feeling well and is either sick or injured. As far as "parasites" in-general go, if you see any blood in his bowel movements, specifically dark-colored blood (bright red blood in a bowel movement is usually due to straining or rectal bleeding due to something they pass), or if the fecal matter itself is consistently loose/runny for more than 4-5 days in a row, these MAY indicated a higher than normal parasite load.

The way I have always approached parasites or any other illness with my dragons, especially parasites that are in a high enough count/load to need treated, if my Dragons are acting like they don't feel well, the big signs being a loss of appetite, lethargy, and avoiding their lights consistently for at least 2-3 days, then I start to worry. That being said, just because they have loose bowel movements for a few days doesn't mean that they are ill or have parasites, especially if they are eating and acting normally. Think about people, or dogs, or birds, or pretty much any other animal/living creature, we all have "loose bowel movements" that can last for a couple of days, but that hardly every means that we're sick and need medication. It is usually related to something we ate, or that we ate too much. And that goes for Dragons too. And since Dragons do not handle stress very well (it effects their physical health quite a bit) and they definitely cannot handle a Vet who doesn't have a clue what they're doing, it's not always best to rush them to a vet immediately for things like this.

The other thing you have to take with a grain of salt are a lot of things you read on the internet, just like you have to do with most things pet shop employees tell you. A lot of people used to list "Bowel Movements that smell really bad" as a symptom of a high count/load of parasites in Dragons...While I understand what they actually meant by this, many people might not, and what Dragon bowel movement doesn't smell really bad? I mean, in my opinion their poop is one of the most awful smelling there is! The only pet I've ever had that had worse smelling poop is my duck (there's is horrid, and they poop constantly, literally constantly, every 5 minutes of the day)....So then you have tons of first-time Dragon owners running their perfectly healthy Dragons to Vets and they're being medicated when they don't need to be, often with horribly harsh meds they shouldn't be given...So you have to look at the whole picture of his health, and most of all look at how he's acting, eating, etc. They let you know when something is wrong...