Please advice on Pinworms, Heating, Treatment! :) (NOW PICS)

[alkemisten3]

Hi! - also posted in Infectious diseases section!
First of all, I would like to mention that I know all basics about bearded dragons and a little bit more than that. After managing to find a vet. in Malta finally, I got my concerns and suspicions confirmed after 3 painful months of trying to fix everything which I thought was MY fault - and a simple test of 10 EUR was more worth than the approx. 500 EUR additional I have spent on heating, lightning..:
My beardie has loads of pinworms!

I will start giving her Panacur tomorrow and update you about the dosages and details about the fecal test.
She is about 9 months old and weights up to date 186 G (Small!).
I suspect she was already infected when I got her, as previous owner sure is a breeder but also a greedy pet store owner...

I have read an awesome article on Bearded Dragon . org about parasites, where it says temps should be around 80 F / 26 C minimum at night during treatment to maximize healing and promote good bacterias.

I Have ordered Reptiaid as well as Acidophiliz+ solution to promote good bacterias, vitamins, minerals etc etc as I presume she will not eat good at all.
She will be getting a new wooden viv on Saturday as I am tired of my glass viv which leaks heat and traps humidity and such - do NOT go for glass vivs!


Questions are many and I would please ask you to help me with all of them, and of course I have tried to search:

1. Should I wait with moving her to the new viv and use the old one (after completely sanitizing it from tomorrow? I mean - so when she is free of parasites, she can move in to a fresh home? If possible I would like to move her already and just keep the new home very clean?
2. Should I have her on paper towels for now? Perhaps a very good idea...
3. I will not use wood as I know it is not fun to keep clean totally. Stones and plastic plants should be fine, or should I go for only plants?
4. How do I basically kill these worms - bleach, ammonia or steam cleaner (I have one!) ? How often should I wipe it all down?
5. I am keeping her on crickets at the moment - but will try to feed her the rest of my calci/phoenix/reptiworms (same same but different.. ). I saw a thread earlier where people ask if it is possible to inject medicines and probiotics IN feeeders? There was no really full answer on this?
6. If I use a blankie for her - should I change it every day? Maybe a good idea...
7. Regarding the Reptiaid and Acidophiliz+ , how should I administer it for this dragon approx. - how often, how much and How do I administrate it best
8. Where do you think the worms could possibly have come from? Bad hygiene from last owner, crickets? (is this possible?)
9. Can they spread to us humans?

Many thanks

 

[fresnowitte]

1. Should I wait with moving her to the new viv and use the old one (after completely sanitizing it from tomorrow? I mean - so when she is free of parasites, she can move in to a fresh home? If possible I would like to move her already and just keep the new home very clean?
Personally I'd just make sure that the viv she's in now is sanitized and not move her until she's done with med's. The med's are hard enough on their systems without adding relocation stress to the equation.
2. Should I have her on paper towels for now? Perhaps a very good idea...
Yes...
3. I will not use wood as I know it is not fun to keep clean totally. Stones and plastic plants should be fine, or should I go for only plants?
I would minimize the amount of furnishings to just the basking spot for now. You are right about the wood it's much harder to keep clean and sterile. Though it's possible if you just wash and bake it daily or whenever it is soiled. I personally have switch most my beardies basking spots to rocks as they are a little easier to clean and keep clean. But at the same time you don't want to be making alot of changes other than removing a few items. You don't want additional stress while on med's as they are hard enough on them without added stress.
4. How do I basically kill these worms - bleach, ammonia or steam cleaner (I have one!) ? How often should I wipe it all down?
If you have a steam cleaner that would be best. I also know of others that use Nolvasan (odors are not harmful). If not you could use a 1 part bleach to 10 parts water solution to wash out the viv. Make sure to rinse it well and that there's no left over bleach smell before returning your beardie to the viv (bleach fumes can be harmful).
5. I am keeping her on crickets at the moment - but will try to feed her the rest of my calci/phoenix/reptiworms (same same but different.. ). I saw a thread earlier where people ask if it is possible to inject medicines and probiotics IN feeeders? There was no really full answer on this?
Personally after the bout with parasites that my beardies had a few years back I don't use crickets. They along with husbandry can often be the cause of parasites. I know that with the other Reptaid not the Carnivore Care but the one Elliot sales it comes with a syringe w/needle for injecting the bugs. However when beardies don't feel well they maynot always want a feeder so personally I just give it directly to beardie.
6. If I use a blankie for her - should I change it every day? Maybe a good idea...
Yes
7. Regarding the Reptiaid and Acidophiliz+ , how should I administer it for this dragon approx. - how often, how much and How do I administrate it best
When you say Reptiaid do you mean the carnivore care or the other Reptaid? If you mean the carnivore care by Fluker's then you follow the instuction chart in the package as close as possible. You can mix it with a babyfood squash or something like that if she won't take it without. I find that with the CC mine like it alone but will eat it either way. The Acidophiliz/probiotic you want to give several hours after the Panacur so that the med's have time to work before you start replacing the good gut flora. I usually give the meds in the morning and then a few hours later the probiotic. The best way to administer the meds and Acidophiliz would be with a syringe. Gentley rub the lips at the side of your beardies face this usually causes them to open their mouths...then you can slip in the syringe. If that doesn't cause your beardie to open her mouth then gently with a credit card or your thumb pull down the bottom lip at the side and slip tip of syringe in allowing some of the content to enter her mouth...this should make her want to lick her lips which will give you the opportunity to slip in the syringe.
8. Where do you think the worms could possibly have come from? Bad hygiene from last owner, crickets? (is this possible?)
Good chance that both those could be cause. Crickets are nasty little carnivores and if you don't keep that cricket keeper clean then....and a dirty viv will without doubt cause parasites. I use to use a particle substrate until in 2007 all my beardies needed to be treated for parasites. I always thought my viv's were clean because I always removed poop as soon as they went. However I was missing lots of bacteria. The runny liquidy part of the poop would soak to the bottom of the viv. So when I cleaned out the substrate there'd be dried areas of stuck substrate crusted on. YUK! Thank god for someone here that said to me like a "litter Box!" I can say that we have not had any positive fecal test since I switched to non particle substrate.
9. Can they spread to us humans?
No


BTW...if you are having humidity issues with your tank remove any water dishes and just offer baths and water manually for now till you can switch viv's. And yes while on the meds you want to raise the night time temps so that the med's can better work. Some times a warm rice sock to lay on will help with any discomfort/tummy aches that the probiotics don't take care of during the time of meds. Also as for the med's...dosage, duration, and concentration???? I'd PM Tracie (Drache613) she's great and will help double check this to make sure it's right for your baby. I know she has saved me/mine in the past...you'd be amazed at how many vets don't give the proper meds or the right amount of concentration.

 

[ChamNW]

Dennis Firstly, did you get Reptaid or Reptaid XL? And where did you get it since you live in Malta? Are you sure it is Reptiad because in your post you call it Repti-aid which is another product from Flukers and does nothing for parasites. It is just a mineral enhanced solution.
If it is Reptaid, which is what you need, then the dose is .1ml/100 grams so you would give her about .2ml once a day for 10 days. Then a 2 day break and another 10 days. Pinworms are not hard to get rid of and Reptaid will certainly do the job. I no longer use Panacur because it is so harsh on the poor reptile's system. If you have already started that, be sure to use the probiotic at the same time and for a few days afterward to replace the gut flora that the panacur has wiped out.
Elliot

 

[alkemisten3]

Dennis Firstly, did you get Reptaid or Reptaid XL? And where did you get it since you live in Malta? Are you sure it is Reptiad because in your post you call it Repti-aid which is another product from Flukers and does nothing for parasites. It is just a mineral enhanced solution.
If it is Reptaid, which is what you need, then the dose is .1ml/100 grams so you would give her about .2ml once a day for 10 days. Then a 2 day break and another 10 days. Pinworms are not hard to get rid of and Reptaid will certainly do the job. I no longer use Panacur because it is so harsh on the poor reptile's system. If you have already started that, be sure to use the probiotic at the same time and for a few days afterward to replace the gut flora that the panacur has wiped out.
Elliot

Hi!
Thank you so much for the feedback - can you explain the best ways to administrate it? Should I force it with a syringe, try to get her to eat injected crickets etc etc?
What about the Pet Authority Acidophiliz+ - does it have any influence at all using together with Panacur and Reptiaid? I guess you cannot really overdose probiotics...

ps.
Trust me - I know what I am buying
Try reptiaid.com - Europe and Voila you will see a link to http://www.butterworms.co.uk/ which indeed to deliver to Malta! It is the normal one, not XL - as she is 168 G only.

Any more input is extremely valuable!
I will update you tomorrow about what dose vet. said was necessary and advice with tracy first!
Funny thing is - I have asked and looked for answers for pinworms and found that many seems to beleive they are not spread easily (it is not like coccidia where you need to keep everything more clean than spotless) but it seems to be quite important.
Amazing help so far!

 

[TheWolfmanTom]

I have nothing to really add to Barbs post.
As far as reptaid goes my personal opinion is its a nice herbal supliment. It wont hurt. The panacure is what will get ride of the pinworms.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

You have done a good amount of preparation!
The Panacur will wipe out any pinworms, with one, or two treatments.
The Reptaid is a good herbal supplement & can be used in conjunction with medication. Make sure however, you keep him well hydrated while he is on the medication & the Reptaid since the Reptaid has been shown to be pretty strong on their systems.

I would stick with giving him probiotics, too. They help greatly. Is he eating pretty well right now?
What is the dose for the Panacur, do you have it on hand so I can double check it for you?

Tracie

 

[alkemisten3]

Hello,

You have done a good amount of preparation!
The Panacur will wipe out any pinworms, with one, or two treatments.
The Reptaid is a good herbal supplement & can be used in conjunction with medication. Make sure however, you keep him well hydrated while he is on the medication & the Reptaid since the Reptaid has been shown to be pretty strong on their systems.

I would stick with giving him probiotics, too. They help greatly. Is he eating pretty well right now?
What is the dose for the Panacur, do you have it on hand so I can double check it for you?

Tracie

Thank you, I am trying my very best - my girlfriend is going nuts on me, but I am truly obsessed by my little dragon haha!

I will surely keep him well hydrated. SHe is at the moment not gaining barely any weight but the appetite is immense in the mornings! Still - not eating any veggies. When she has finished eating, She is basking and looks generally quite happy but then *smack* and she goes hiding and sleeps more or less - so I have learned this most probably means she is in pain (trying to digest the food and not being able to really) - and she will not eat any more that day and becomes very lethargic. I am bathing her at least 20 minutes now each evening just when lights go off and she LOVES it. She is shedding legs at the moment and the tail is going to shed soon I hope as it looks gray-ish. Skin turns beautiful color and she closes the eyes in the bath - truly enjoying it! I test temp with tounge (before she goes in) to make sure it is warm and I keep it warm all the time.

I have not gotten the meds yet and vet. said perhaps not today (he needs to drop them off, or I will need to take a taxi for 25 EUR (30 USD) just to pick them up. I will of course update u about the amounts and make sure it seems ok before I give her any. Photos and a movie coming up later!

 

[Drache613]

Hello!

Oh, ok. Let me know when you get your meds, & we will review the dosing, etc for you.
Great, looking forward to seeing a movie!
She could be a little aggravated due to her upcoming shedding. It tends to make them a little uncomfortable & grouchy sometimes. A daily bath should help with the shedding & with hydration issues, too.
I hope that her appetite improves soon & that she starts eating her greens & veggies more often, too. It will take time, some tend to eat them before others.

Tracie

 

[alkemisten3]

Ok, so I finally got the meds.
a PILL!
The vet does not seem very educated with reptiles after all - but no one has lizards in Malta except me anyway basically heh.

So I was adviced:
She has a whole lot of pinworms - I asked for levels and was given "Normally you can see 1-2 eggs in each tube and now it was around 11-12" I do not know if that says anything?
No Coccidia, small traces of tapeworms but most probably not anything.

Whole pill I got is 250 mg, looks like this: http://www.healthcentral.com/common/images/c/CPH02000_121477_5.JPG
Vet said: Split in 8 (Meaning = 250 / 8 = 31.25 MG) and give this now and then then another 8th (31.25 MG) after 15 (!!) days and it should completely wipe out the pinworms.

She is approx. 9 months old, eating ok (15 large crix per day or so), no veggies

Now my questions are starting to come along as well...
1. Can I start with the Panacur already, or wait until I have Acidophlis+ and reptiaid first? Or is it enough if I can give her some soy youghurt each evening instead for waiting (it will most likely take a few days more for this acidophilis and reptaid to arrive)

2. The dose seems quite high - and I am not sure if it is possible to make sure I split it in to an 8th of the pill properly? How do I split it easiest, and how to I administrate it easiest? (I was thinking basically forcing it in her gently)

3. Currently, I only have a basking rock and a large water dish for bathing - How do I clean this easiest? I have paper on the floor now and just take this out 2 times per day and replace it with new. Should I also spray the diluted bleach solution and rinse with water on the basking rock in the end of each day perhaps - or is this best to do after I see she has pooped (I am working daytime - tricky)

Reason for waterdish: I think she is very dehydrated already now (eyes are very droopy) I will give her a long bath tonight and give her dehydration powder for kids + 1/4 part apple juice + water...

Many thanks - please answer asap!

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

How much does your girl weigh? I can have you mix it differently to help get the correct dose instead of breaking the pill up into 8 sections which I am not is right for her weight. Did he dose it for her weight, do you know?
You can start the acidophiliz at the same time as the Panacur. You really only need 2, maybe 3 doses at the most.
Keep giving her a daily bath to help out with hydration status, that should help out quite a bit.
Is she eating pretty well?
You can keep her tank a little warmer at night, around 80 or so, just to keep her immune system boosted.

Tracie

 

[alkemisten3]

Weight:
190 g = 6.70205 oz
9 months old
1. Can I start with the Panacur already, or wait until I have Acidophlis+ and reptiaid first? Or is it enough if I can give her some soy youghurt each evening instead for waiting (it will most likely take a few days more for this acidophilis and reptaid to arrive)

If possible I would to make the dosage different - I do not want to give her 2 (what seems to be) high doses and half a month in between the doses (15 days!) I guess this should not take MORE than 15 days in total - including all doses?

2. The dose seems quite high - and I am not sure if it is possible to make sure I split it in to an 8th of the pill properly? How do I split it easiest, and how to I administrate it easiest? (I was thinking basically forcing it in her gently perhaps, or giving it with some food?)

Many thanks, I will wait for as much info as possible before I start dosing.

 

[fresnowitte]

Alkemisten3,

Have you contacted Tracie yet? If not I'd PM her. :wink:

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I will send mixing instructions for the Panacur suspension via PM, ok?

You can start her on 25mg/kg for her body weight, which will be .5ml. She only needs one treatment, every 7 days, for a MAX of up to 3 treatments. That should be sufficient enough to lower the levels.
Go ahead & start the soy yogurt, that is fine. Then you can give the first dose of the Panacur & the soy yogurt later on in the day.
Be sure to keep her well hydrated during the medication round.

Let us know how she is doing.

Tracie

 

[alkemisten3]

I have been bathing her every night, except yesterday due to lack of time... And this morning she is just sleeping...
Awww I can just imagine how much pain she is in, not being able to digest properly...
I will start the Panacur today and hopefully she will be ok.
Nothing arrived from the UK (reptiaid ++ acidophiliz) so I guess I just have to wait for that.. I have bought some chicken and mango no-junk child food here in case that she is not eating anything..

What are u looking at!?

Something strange with the tail lately but I am 99% sure it is just shed that wont come of even though I bathe her every evening

Hope, the great escapee - after this time I will make sure she can never do this again!

The terrarium before quarantine - all in glass - all bad.. Luckily a new one is getting here today in wood.

25th Dec 2010 - Christmas time! (Very snowy huh?)

Sleepy time - do not want to bathe daddy!

This is how much I luv bathing!

And Finally, a video of a hungry hungry lizard (before starting with meds now)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XjfsmoOqDU

 

[fresnowitte]

Aww...she's a gorgeous an adorable little girl. Thanks for sharing her pic's with us.

BTW...the tail looks to me as if it's actually getting prepared to shed again. As they get older the sheds take a bit longer. :wink: