our bearded dragon is lathargic and isn't eating much

[vanda]

Hello All
I am new to the forum and to beardies.
my daughter in law has given us custody, so to speak, of a bearded dragon that is about 2 years old.
He ( I am told he's a he) is very friendly, but so calm and still sometimes I have to check to see if he is breathing!
He is enjoying being held, and loves to be petted on top of the head. but doesn't move to much while held, he closes his eyes and stays put.
He won't eat any meal worms at all. We got him to bite one, but he had it in his mouth long enough to kill it and then tossed it aside.
He did however eat 4 crickets 2 days ago, but won't eat anything else.
There is fresh greens in his dish, has fresh water, good UV light, good basking temp of about 95 and something like 75 in the "shade".
He has had recent surgury after having eaten a fake plant and becoming blocked.
I was reading about how they sort of Hybernate, but don't know enough about them to know if that is what is happening.
Any ideas or advice would be great.

 

[patrickb]

I'm no beardie expert, but a few things I would like to mention. First off, don't feed the mealworms. They have a very high chitin (exoskeleton) to meat content which means there is a lot of left over stuff that your beardie can't digest. This could cause impaction, especially considering how many meal worms he would have to eat to fill him up if he was eating properly. Impaction could be a reason for him being lethargic.

As for the UV light, what brand/type is it? The coil style's aren't good from what I read. Also how far away from the UV light is your beardie and how old is the actual light?

Is he still pooping regularly? Does it look firm with a white part (the urates) on one end? If the white part is yellow or orange, that means there could be an underlying problem. Do you bath him any? Lot's of reptiles won't drink from water dishes, so the bathing can be very important in helping to keep him hydrated. He should be bathed in shallow luke warm water for about 10-15 mins 2-3x a week. If the urates are yellow or orangish, this *could* be from dehydration, though there are other things that cause this.

The surgery most definitely is a very stressful thing, and it may be why he isn't eating well. How long ago was this surgery and how long as he not been eating well? The hybernation you speak of is brumation, but he should be eating more than what you mentioned for sure. He may have an infection or parasite problem, or the surgery may have stressed him too much. Barbara here on the forums (I think that is who it is) seems to have a lot of experience with rescues and sick beardies so hopefully she will chime in soon, as she is definitely much more knowledgeable on beardies than me. I however would recommend getting him to the vet for a checkup asap though. The things I mentioned are kind of just ideas of what could be causing it and the answers would help the true experts here identify the problem sooner I would hope. I hope that helps and I wish the best for you and your beardie!

 

[Jiffy]

Hi and welcome to the site!
Sometimes beardies go thru relocation stress after being moved, and tend to not eat for a week or so.
But due to the surgery it could be something else. Has the surgery been very recent?

 

[vanda]

Thanks so much for all of your replies.
I believe the surgury was well over a month ago, and he has been checked at the vet college here afterwards.
We live in prince edward island, canada..... a little tiny spot! And to find anyone who actually knows anything about reptiles is like pulling hens teeth!!
His UV light is a 10, and it isn't a coil one.
He has the basking lamp which is over 100 watt I believe because we have a huge tank. It actually used to be a fish tank and if I could figure out how to post some pic's I could do so! The lady at the pet store said it would be okay to use the red (night time ) bulb all day, instead of changing lights during the day and night. ( his basking light), I am not sure about the distance that it is for sure...
He just had a bath last night, didn't get much response from him,,, just kind of sat there! He is pooping, and he also pooped in the bath.
It is black, with a bit of white in it.
My daughter in law , who is the previous owner said that he loves his greens and gobbles them up, but he won't eat them for us at all.
He has eaten in days and we have offered two more crickets yesterday and they are still hopping around in there. I also put in new greens this morning, and dribbled some bottled water over his snout... he moved his mouth slightly but no big movements.
he seems very sleepy, but is by no means in a deep continuous sleep.
He isn't basking much at all though. When we placed him on his basking spot after the bath, he only stayed for a few minutes and went back to the cool end.
We are totally inexperienced with beardies, but tried to get the best advice we could from a pet store here that has some of the little darlings! We did shake the few crickets that he did eat in vitamin powder given to us by the pet store.
Perhaps it is relocation stress? But how the heck would he really know?
Are they that intelligent? And I have been handling him alot, cuddling and petting his head, which he seems to love..
maybe I shouldn't be doing that at this time?
Any advice is welcome, we don't know much.
Also, a question.. what is this about becoming black bearded? What is that, and why do they do it?

 

[patrickb]

That red bulb could very well be the problem. Any form of light will disturb a beardie and make them unable to sleep. Remove it, and consider getting a ceramic heat emitter if you need additional heat at nighttime. Also, make sure to remove all the crickets that are uneaten before bedtime, as they will disturb him and even nibble on him, causing more stress. Hopefully that red bulb is the whole problem and your dragon is just very tired. Hope this helps!

 

[vanda]

But he isn't UNable to sleep... quite the opposite.. he is super sleepy.
We had a head light,( not sure of specfics of it), and the pet shop lady said they need this infared light at night, to mimick the moon sort of thing? And she said that we could leave it on all day along with the UV light, and just unplug the UV at night.........???
They are complicated little creatures aren't they?

 

[Paradon]

Well, from personal experience the red light doesn't bother them at night as you already mentioned, also. My iguana will sleep...quite soundly...when the red light is on to keep him warm at night. Even when I make loud noise in his room he will not wake up. One thing that could be making him sleepy is that in the north, in Canada, it's getting cold and the day light is getting shorter, so he naturally he will try to brumate, hibernation for reptiles. Even if you keep the light on as long as in the summer, or try keeping the temperature up, he would still brumate. I know some beardie do and some don't, but I guess yours do. I had one that would brumate for 4 months during the fall and winter. Now, I'm not sure what the surgery do to him, but from what you are describing, it sounds to me your dragon is trying to brumate. I wouldn't worry about it. If he brumate more than 4 months then I'd start to get worry. In that case, soak him in lukewarm water, he should start drinking the water and wake up the next the day.

 

[patrickb]

Paradon, that is good news to hear. I have had trouble with certain species before with any sources of light and had read mention by others before that had a problem with red lights and their beardies. So I assumed it could be causing the issue! Good to learn new things. Thanks for the input mate! I just hope her dragon is brumating and does well.

 

[vanda]

hey again!!
We took the red light out today and put the regular daytime one back in. The temperature is up higher and he is basking more. Also seems more alert and doesn't look like he was smoking something.... LOl.... because his eyes did look really spacey!
Now tonight we will put the red one is for his night time warmth.
What do you guys do in this respect? Having to switch lights and turn some off all together seems like an awful lot of switching!!
My other pets are feeling ignored! I also have a dog and two little pink eyed white rats , who used to get all my attention!!
Now to get him to eat! He won't touch the greens at all.
We will try crickets again tomorrow.
I am taking a fecal sample to the vet on monday to check for parasites.
time will tell I guess.

 

[NegativeCreep]

I don't keep any heat on at night. It stays pretty warm in the room where we keep our herps, so the temps barely dip into the 60's at night. They get plenty of day-time light/heat, which should be just fine. I am keeping an eye on temps in the morning, since we just moved to a new apt, and I suppose I will have to address cool temps, if that arises.

 

[diamc]

Hi, I know you said that you're using a 10.0 fluorescent UVB, but could you fill us in on the brand name and also how close your beardie is to it? Is the UVB right alongside the basking bulb?

What size tank is he in and what is the wattage of the basking bulb? If you're using a type of stick-on thermometer, like a strip type, round gauge or a digital (without a probe end) then the temps could be off by as much as 20 degrees. The only 2 ways to get an accurate reading are with either a temperature gun or a digital with a long wire & probe end. Those can be found at Walmart.

For a 2 yr old beardie you should be dusting with calcium with D3 but phosphorus-free 3 days a wk and with vitamins 1 day a wk. Here's a site that shows the best greens to feed: http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Nutrition.html

That's good that you're now using a bright white bulb rather than a red bulb. It should be easier on his eyes and increase his activity level. At night, you don't need any lights at all unless the room temp drops below 65. If it does, you can use a ceramic heat emitter that gives off heat but no light. http://pet-king.stores.yahoo.net/91197260056.html

If you have any other question, please let us know.

 

[Paradon]

Here is a good link concerning the issue of lighting and heating: http://www.anapsid.org/maincaptive.html My vet told me professors in universities and veterinarians, including Susan Donoghue, uses this site a lot.

 

[vanda]

Okay folks, this is what I found out so far.
His tank is 4 ft wide, 16 inches deep and 2 feet high.
His basking light is 13 inches away from his basking spot and the UV light is 20 inches away.
The lights are close to each other. The UV is a Repti-Glo 10.0 - Exco-Terra.
We have a stick on thermometer.
The Vitamins are Reptivite with D3.
We still can't get the little frigger to eat anything. We just gave him a bath, and it didn't move a muscle. He is more patient than my dog for goodness sake.
We were actually using a childs toothbrush to lightly massage him and get him clean.
I read about stress marks..... his back feet are pretty dark, and also very dark around the vent.....
I am sure it can't be normal for a dragon to be this mellow.
He doesn't even follow our finger when we put our finger on the outside of his enclosure.
And when he WAS eating crickets , the one time that he did... he couldn't seem to put his tongue out very far. As I recall, when watching him eat when my daughter in law owned him, it used to come out pretty far...
I think I need to take a course to look after this little darlin'
HELP... ......................... !!!!!!!

 

[diamc]

Hi, sorry to hear that there is no change in him. I think a few things might be going on. Before we consider brumation, I do see a few things that should be twinked in your setup. First of all, if you've had this beardie less than 2 wks, he could be going through some relocation stress but let's also go over some other things.
According to the measurements of the tank, it is about an 80 gallon and I got that info from here: http://www.beardeddragon.org/articles/conversions/
You mentioned that you're using about 100 watt basking bulb. Could you double check the wattage of it? Since you have such a large tank and you're using a stick-on thermometer, I'll bet the temps are quite a ways off. I'm thinking that the temps are too low BUT I wouldn't suggest increasing the bulb wattage until you get either a temperature gun or a digital thermometer with as long wire & probe end like this:

It's very important to get accurate temps and this digital can be found in Walmart, it's the AcuRite brand and it only cost $12.00, it gives the basking & cool side temps at the same time & also has a humidity readout. You put the thermometer part way over on the cool side & lay the probe end so that it is resting on the basking area, wait about 45 min for the temps to stop rising, the "out" reading is for the basking site and the "in" reading is for the cool side. I would suggest you invest in one right away so you find out what the temps really are. You may need to increase the bulb wattage of the basking bulb or even put a lower wattage bulb in a clamp holder alongside the 100 watt. It's important that the basking bulb(s) are right alongside each other so he can get both benefits while he is basking.
The Repti-Glo 10.0 has caused some problems which you can read about here: [ Invalid URL Removed / p= t=68333 f=34 ] I would suggest that you replace it with a Repti-Sun 10.0 fluorescent when the bulb is 5 months old. But, in order to use it somewhat safely for now, it needs to have a bright white basking bulb next to it and should be 10" from the beardie when he is basking. At a distance of 20" he is NOT getting any UV benefits at all, so I suggest you make an adjustment of that distance.
You mentioned that the vitamins are Reptivite with D3. Since that product contains both vitamins and calcium, it's actually impossible to give the right amount of each and if given too often, can cause health issues because the vitamins should be given less often than the calcium. For a 2 yr old, you should be dusting with the calcium with D-3 but phosphorus-free 3 days a wk, 1 feeding a day and with the vitamins, 1 day a wk, 1 feeding a day. Most of us use the Rep-Cal brand supplements which you can read about here: http://www.petmountain.com/product/supplements/105551/rep-cal-ultrafine-calcium-with-vitamin-d3.html
The reasoning for the dark areas on his back feet and around the vent area could be that he is getting ready to shed which can also sometimes affect their appetites. Baths do help to put moisture underneath the skin to make the shedding occur quicker.
If you haven't tried handfeeding and since he is acting so lethargic, I suggest you get some chicken, squash, applesauce babyfood. Mix a little bit of the chicken in with a larger amount of squash and add a little of the applesauce, add just enough water or pedialyte to thin the mixture. Add a pinch of calcium and mix it all up. If you could warm it in the microwave for a few seconds, it may just encourage him more to lick it. Put drops on his nose for him to hopefully lick off. Once he gets a taste, he should really like it.
Please try these suggestions and make these changes. Let us know how it goes, OK?

 

[vanda]

Thanks for all of that information.
We are going to lower that UV light, but we are wondering, should the light be on a screen or something, so he doesn't touch it and burn himself?
maybe this cage is just too big for a beardie?
My boyfriend thinks we should just give him some space for a few days, and let him adjust without being handled. I find it hard to do, because I am really worried about him. I would take him into the bed to sleep with us if I could...LOL
I will take the fecal sample to the vet tomorrow. Give him some peace and see if he is indeed brumating (spelling?), or maybe getting ready to shed...
We have tried hand feeding, but will give that mixture a try. Although at this point I have my doubts. It has been 5 days since he has eaten anything to the best of my knowledge. He did have a poop today, but it was not looking the same. Almost slimey and loose....
I am really worried about him though, it can't be normal for a dragon to be so mellow and lathargic.
Say a prayer for "Abe" everybody in beardie land!