No - we will NOT skip a day of feeding NOR limit his food :/

[WolfMama]

When i had my first baby i was told by a petco employee (who had her own beardie) only to feed her like 5-10 crickets every other day. .. Cuz we wouldnt want her to get to big. We didn't know any better... So thats what we did. I still feel so terrible about that!!!

Awwww! {hug} Scrammy! You didn't know. We went through a similar thing for the first few days, where they told us 5 crickets a day (and I researched about beardies, too, before we brought him home. There's so much misinformation and it takes time to sift through it and make sense of it all.) Thankfully, I found out the proper way. It's horrible that the petshops care so little. It's funny you say that (that the employee said they had a beardie), because PetSmart's employees claimed to have beardies, too. I'm starting to wonder if that's a line some of them give. :x Another line they claim is that they "pet them all day long." Another funny thing about that, we visited for almost 2 weeks, our beardie, and I never once saw any employee holding them.

Don't blame yourself. And, your experience can help others. The very fact that you feel so badly shows how much you love your beardie

 

[randommonks]

I completely disagree that they can be overfed on staple food. Every reputable source I've read states otherwise. Only the pet shops and certain vet sources say otherwise - and a few people on youtube who also list a plethora of other misinformation. And, they should be receiving exercise. They can't go out and get their own food, and if they could, they'd eat as much as they wanted to. And while I do not subscribe to the "in the wild" premises, when it comes to food they can eat as they like. There is no shortage of bugs in the Austrailian desert, nor of plant matter.

If a bearded dragon is "overweight" it's not going to be from vegetables, and approximately 80% of an adult bearded dragon's diet is plant matter. They prefer that to crickets when they are older. So, as long as they are fed their veggies, they won't overeat. And, one should consider looking to whether or not they are receiving viable options to exercise.

Actually if you look at the photos of wild bearded dragons, they are normally skinny and dehyrated. That normally tells me that in the wild, food is scarce.

I've not really read that an older dragon prefers plants to insects. In fact, most people with adults have trouble getting their adults to eat veggies. Like Jess said earlier, it takes a week or so of eating nothing before they cave and eat some veggies. I've even read that someone's beardie ate nothing for almost a month and didn't cave.

Everyone is entitled to their own forms of care for their animals. What works for one may not work for the other. A few years ago, mealworms were used for baby beardies but, today, roaches are the new vogue. There is a general consensus here, but I would refrain from judging someone else too harshly for having a different opinion.

 

[WolfMama]

I'm rather confused at the misconception, Random, I did say that unlesss medically necessary, on more then one occassion. And, I feel that I've been taken out of context in your reply. Nevertheless, I've read so many posts and articles, and talked with so many with adult beardies that have said that their bearded dragons love their vegetables. The problem you describe lies more with bearded dragons who were never introduced to the vegetables and therefore it is now a challenge for them to become accustomed to them. Yes, many have a difficult time introducing juvenile bearded dragons. Most often, I'm hearing that they are just not ready for them, as their primary diet at this age should is live staple, not vegetable.

You've quoted one portion of my post, but for some reason, I think you missed the intent of the OP and the entire concept. I suggest you review that, please. I've never heard of anyone withholding vegetables in order to get them to eat vegetables?

Bearded dragons, in the wild if you will, are constantly on the run from predators. I would not say that they are "normally" dehydrated and malnourished And, my point was that in the wild they can choose to find food or not. They cannot choose to get out of a viv to get food. To sit and eat yourself, and not want to be bothered to feed them is quite distressing.

I do not agree that everyone is entitled to their own form of care. Food is not a choice - it's a need. Leaving an animal to live a life time in a viv is cruel. Not feeding an animal daily is cruel and unnessary (unless medically necessary). Adult bearded dragons need vegetables. And, in my reply to Jess I stated that there was no reason to withold vegetables.

If you don't want to feed them each day, if you don't want to clean their viv when the defecate, if you don't want to give them attention (of course we all have days when we can't take them out and play with them for a length of time - but to not take 20 minutes out to feed them is inexcusable), to not provide a source of hydration - these are not a choice.

How you chose to decorate a viv, that is a choice. Lighting, food, UVB, exercise, care, attention, hydration... these are not a matter of choosing how to care for a bearded dragon. Choosing crickets or dubia, those are choices. Choosing collard greens over mustard greens, those are choices. And, IMO, even those choices may vary depending on a bearded dragons NEEDS (e.g., one may prefer to eat another vegetable, so the caretaker must be considerate of those needs.).

Why would anyone WANT to deny their bearded dragon food for a day? The only reason beyond misconception is laziness. They are not ornaments. They are living breathing beings.

Again, please review the entire context.

As for judging, I enjoyed the support others have given me on this thread and off of the thread. If you've seen my posts, I am very supportive of people when mistakes are made - we all make them. *My* thread was created for the support of others I'm deeply distressed by the notion of denying something as simple as food each day. And I'm finding MANY people who are TELLING others (NOT on these forums) to NOT feed their bearded dragons, that they are overfeeding them, that they do not need to be fed daily. Someone actually had the audacity to tell my husband that we were "over feeding" our 2.5 month old too many crickets at 50-65 per day? He's growing fabulously - and I'm very appreciative of the people here whom I've spoken with on the forums and off, who advised ME that MY beardie's appettite should be better! Because of that help, he's growing leaps and bounds

I'm also appreciative of the dubia suggestion. I was not thrilled with the idea, but I want what is best for our beardie, and I've now come to very much embrace the idea and look forward to the switch

I'm deeply saddened for the beardies, and the people who love them who do not know better, when they are denied daily feedings.

I know not of what general consensus you speak of. I do see many loving bearded dragon "human parents"/"cartakers"/"slaves" on these forums And I find it a bit sad that they may seem "extreme" in some way. Rather, I see them as greatly improving the lives and care of these critters - where they otherwise would not receive what they need.

For example, I can also find all over the net where people claim the coil bulbs had no problem. Why would one want to take the risk? The same for bedding on sand. And, I see people providing suggesting daily feeding and chioces in food - these are wonderful suggestions

When I go to youtube, and I see what the pet shops are telling people, it is very disturbing. People actually think they are overfeeding their bearded dragons on staple food. People are denying them food daily. I've seen many come here distressed because they've done all they can and have tried so hard, but because of misinformation, their beardie wasn't growing as well as he/she could have been growing. And, it hurts them deeply because they were trying so very hard to do the best they could.

Anyone who takes in any animal should love that critter and want to provide the best they can. I am a firm believer of treating children and critters the way I would want to be treated

I do not see roaches as "the new vogue," but rather an option that has been discovered to be nutritious and for some preferrable. Some are bothered by roaches, some by crickets. New information on options develop that provide more nutrition, or equal nutrition with more variety. A feature I prefer about roaches is that they will not bite. That is an option. Feeding is not

Please be very careful at suggesting that it would be normal to starve a bearded dragon for a month Every option should be tried before resorting to such an extreme measure.

Happy feeding

Actually if you look at the photos of wild bearded dragons, they are normally skinny and dehyrated. That normally tells me that in the wild, food is scarce.

I've not really read that an older dragon prefers plants to insects. In fact, most people with adults have trouble getting their adults to eat veggies. Like Jess said earlier, it takes a week or so of eating nothing before they cave and eat some veggies. I've even read that someone's beardie ate nothing for almost a month and didn't cave.

Everyone is entitled to their own forms of care for their animals. What works for one may not work for the other. A few years ago, mealworms were used for baby beardies but, today, roaches are the new vogue. There is a general consensus here, but I would refrain from judging someone else too harshly for having a different opinion.

 

[randommonks]

Ok I will try to address each of your points.

Nevertheless, I've read so many posts and articles, and talked with so many with adult beardies that have said that their bearded dragons love their vegetables. The problem you describe lies more with bearded dragons who were never introduced to the vegetables and therefore it is now a challenge for them to become accustomed to them. Yes, many have a difficult time introducing juvenile bearded dragons. Most often, I'm hearing that they are just not ready for them, as their primary diet at this age should is live staple, not vegetable.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. My point was that most of the posts I've read on this site have indicated that their dragons do not want vegetables when the time comes to make that transition. A lot of people have been trying to feed veggies since the dragons were babies, but the dragons never devleoped a taste for them. Darwin was a curious eater and I was lucky that he grew to like veggies.

You've quoted one portion of my post, but for some reason, I think you missed the intent of the OP and the entire concept. I suggest you review that, please. I've never heard of anyone withholding vegetables in order to get them to eat vegetables?

I have never, ever stated that anyone should withhold vegetables, especially to get them to eat vegetables. When the owner of an adult is having trouble getting the adult to cave in and eat veggies, they are advised to offer nothing except veggies daily until the dragon is consistently eating greens. Perhaps, again, I or Jess wasn't clear on this.

I do not agree that everyone is entitled to their own form of care. Food is not a choice - it's a need. Leaving an animal to live a life time in a viv is cruel. Not feeding an animal daily is cruel and unnessary (unless medically necessary). Adult bearded dragons need vegetables. And, in my reply to Jess I stated that there was no reason to withold vegetables.

Then we can agree to disagree. Bearded dragons are very hardy creatures that have survived all manners of enclosures and care. I, for one, will not judge someone if they choose to raise a healthy beardie differently than I do.

I know not of what general consensus you speak of. I do see many loving bearded dragon "human parents"/"cartakers"/"slaves" on these forums And I find it a bit sad that they may seem "extreme" in some way. Rather, I see them as greatly improving the lives and care of these critters - where they otherwise would not receive what they need.

The general consensus I speak of is the way that most people on this site prefer to take care of their beardies- Reptisun 10.0, certain basking spot range, certain feeding schedule, certain greens, etc. I'm sorry if you misunderstood me, since that is the way that I take care of my dragons, so I'm not sure why you see them as extreme.

Please be very careful at suggesting that it would be normal to starve a bearded dragon for a month Every option should be tried before resorting to such an extreme measure.

Again, never suggested such a thing. Never have I suggested that it would be normal in any way to starve a beardie for a month, but I was simply citing an extreme example of the methods people have had to resort to get their adults to make the necessary transition from staple feeders to staple veggies for their own health.

 

[diamc]

[This is a very good thread and a wonderful subject. It's fine to have a debate and a difference of opinion so let's try to get along and explain why/how we do different things a certain way and prove their way doesn't necessarily mean that the beardie is being deprived of food as a whole, rather than withholding feeders occasionally to help encourage them to eat their staple greens/veggies. Feeding babies is certainly a whole different entity as well as trying to get brumating beardies to eat daily. Please be polite and not attack any comments that have been posted, certainly don't want to have to lock this thread. Thanks]

 

[WolfMama]

<sigh> I typed out a reply and the window closed. Okay, will type a new one

Ok I will try to address each of your points. Perhaps I wasn't clear. My point was that most of the posts I've read on this site have indicated that their dragons do not want vegetables when the time comes to make that transition. A lot of people have been trying to feed veggies since the dragons were babies, but the dragons never devleoped a taste for them. Darwin was a curious eater and I was lucky that he grew to like veggies.

Good, then you do not agree with withholding food Please review what I've in context, and my opening post in particular. That was the topic I defer to my opening post and other comments (in which I state that an adult should be provided with a salad daily).

An adult beardie's diet is 75% to 80% vegetable. A juvenile is the opposite I've been reassured here by so many that I need not stress that our 2 month old is not interested in vegetables and that this is normal, and I've seen that said to many others with juvenile beardies that are older. It is natural for them to prefer the live food at this age

And, while I did not address it, it is suggested by the more better care sheets, that even adults be fed all the live 1x/day So, I do not feel that live STAPLE should be denied, either. Nevertheless, a salad should always be provided on a daily basis, and the comment made in the opening post was with regard to people who state that thye only feed their beardies 5x a week or less. Thus, there is really no reason to deny them even live on a daily basis, other then for medical or health necessity.

I have never, ever stated that anyone should withhold vegetables, especially to get them to eat vegetables. When the owner of an adult is having trouble getting the adult to cave in and eat veggies, they are advised to offer nothing except veggies daily until the dragon is consistently eating greens. Perhaps, again, I or Jess wasn't clear on this.

You seem to be posting to jump on my replies and in defense of Jess. Was there a conversation I was not privy to outside of this thread? I was unaware that this was turning into an argument. You were both quite clear. Again, Jess did not feel it were important if a bearded dragon were not fed daily, and you replied in agreement with Jess :?

Again, it appears you did not read through my reply, as you replied to the contrary of what I stated - and I said to Jess, "If a bearded dragon is "overweight" it's not going to be from vegetables, and approximately 80% of an adult bearded dragon's diet is plant matter." The topic was with regard to not feeding a bearded dragon on a daily basis (and, as I said, with the exception of medical reasons ) I also stated in my opening post to which Jess replied, "I realize when they are adults their feeding changes, and you can put out a salad once a day." as well as other comments to this regard

Jess had stated,

"Babies should be fed every day for sure, I won't argue that. But if an adult beardie isn't fed every single day, I don't think it's the end of the world. "

Your defense was to Jess' post (which I didn't feel he needed any ) so, I did not misunderstand This was, again, with regard to DENYING a beardie DAILY food

I must state that I had no need to bring this up. Jess replied, and I replied, and it seemed fine

Then we can agree to disagree. Bearded dragons are very hardy creatures that have survived all manners of enclosures and care. I, for one, will not judge someone if they choose to raise a healthy beardie differently than I do.

I do not feel this is a matter of agree or disagree based on opinion. There is right and there is wrong. There are clearly enclosure requirements that are erroneous. I am very appreciative to the people at this forum who brought to my attention the UVB bulb, infra-red bulbs, appropriate humidity, etc. This is where I stated you seemed to feel that others are more extreme, and I apparently read that comment correctly based on your reply (as you seem to indicate otherwise in your next paragraph)

Just because a beardie appears to be doing well, does not mean that it is "healthy" and that the manner in which it is kept or fed is what is best - and since they rely upon us for their EVERY need - they deserve the best we can give them. Every creature under the mercy of another deserves that.

However, it most definitely appears that you had not read my posts. I simply asked that you do read them as you seemed to be becoming argumentative about a matter matters outside of the intent of my thread as well as the topic at hand, which was very sad

The general consensus I speak of is the way that most people on this site prefer to take care of their beardies- Reptisun 10.0, certain basking spot range, certain feeding schedule, certain greens, etc. I'm sorry if you misunderstood me, since that is the way that I take care of my dragons, so I'm not sure why you see them as extreme.

I never said any such thing You stated,

A few years ago, mealworms were used for baby beardies but, today, roaches are the new vogue. There is a general consensus here, but I would refrain from judging someone else too harshly for having a different opinion."

and I very clearly replied in agreement of how many of the people take the care needed, (my reply_

I know not of what general consensus you speak of. I do see many loving bearded dragon "human parents"/"cartakers"/"slaves" on these forums And I find it a bit sad that they may seem "extreme" in some way. Rather, I see them as greatly improving the lives and care of these critters - where they otherwise would not receive what they need.

Thus, I am clearly in agreement It seemed that you had some sort of disagreement, as you needed to "refrain" from commenting upon the general consensus Perplexing, as, again, I don't see the correlation as to my topic Nevertheless, I wholeheartedly feel that beardies, and all critters reliant on others for love and care, should receive the best they can get - and that includes food on a daily basis and propery hydration - the most basic of *needs*

Again, never suggested such a thing. Never have I suggested that it would be normal in any way to starve a beardie for a month, but I was simply citing an extreme example of the methods people have had to resort to get their adults to make the necessary transition from staple feeders to staple veggies for their own health.

You stated that people deny them food for an entire month in a manner that indicated this were normal and acceptable. I stated that denying food for medical reasons for a beardie's health is of course another matter and I would never suggest otherwise. It is heart wrenching when any care taker MUST do this, and I completely empathize. I do not feel that such an extreme measure should be recommended lightly. Again, what I said was,

"Please be very careful at suggesting that it would be normal to starve a bearded dragon for a month Every option should be tried before resorting to such an extreme measure. "

So if you are saying that you do not agree with denying them food on a daily basis - I'm glad to hear it

Phew. I hate having to type a reply a second time. LOL.

 

[WolfMama]

Thank you diamc I agree, withholding food when necessary is a very different matter and, it is a VERY difficult thing to do My heart goes out to any "parent"/"caretake"/"slave" when they need to do this. I absolutely hate whenever we've needed to do that for our kitties, or pup It just wrenches your heart.

[This is a very good thread and a wonderful subject. It's fine to have a debate and a difference of opinion so let's try to get along and explain why/how we do different things a certain way and prove their way doesn't necessarily mean that the beardie is being deprived of food as a whole, rather than withholding feeders occasionally to help encourage them to eat their staple greens/veggies. Feeding babies is certainly a whole different entity as well as trying to get brumating beardies to eat daily. Please be polite and not attack any comments that have been posted, certainly don't want to have to lock this thread. Thanks]

 

[diamc]

I would like to add something. Someone (I'm not gonna go back through the whole thread to see who it was :wink: ) mentioned that they had heard that a rescued beardie shouldn't be offered food daily and wondered if it could be for medical reasons but seemed like they didn't really understand about it. What I and other owners that have had beardies for many years have stated on this forum is that if an emaciated beardie is given too much protein too quickly, it can overtax their systems which puts a big strain on the liver and kidneys, they need to be eased into the feeders very slowly. The main thing is to make sure the beardie is thoroughly hydrated first by giving frequent baths and oral fluids and a lot of times, it's suggested to start out by feeding small amounts of chicken (or turkey) baby food mixed with some squash baby food as that will be easier to digest and help to give them a boost. I just wanted to clarify this.

 

[WolfMama]

I would like to add something. Someone (I'm not gonna go back through the whole thread to see who it was :wink: ) mentioned that they had heard that a rescued beardie shouldn't be offered food daily and wondered if it could be for medical reasons but seemed like they didn't really understand about it. What I and other owners that have had beardies for many years have stated on this forum is that if an emaciated beardie is given too much protein too quickly, it can overtax their systems which puts a big strain on the liver and kidneys, they need to be eased into the feeders very slowly. The main thing is to make sure the beardie is thoroughly hydrated first by giving frequent baths and oral fluids and a lot of times, it's suggested to start out by feeding small amounts of chicken (or turkey) baby food mixed with some squash baby food as that will be easier to digest and help to give them a boost. I just wanted to clarify this.

That makes absolutely perfect sense, Diamc I am probably the person who stated that, if a rescue person did not feed a beardie, it was probably for some sort of health reason

Now I'm curious. LOL. Yes, that's what happened

jwideman had mentioned (and it was very polite and we had a fine exchange ):
"I believe rescues that were underfed will need more feedings with less food, while normal healthy adults will gorge every few days."

I had replied: "Wow, jwideman, I hadn’t heard that one before. That's very cruel! Every "few days?" That's even less then people who feed 5x/week. There is no reason, other then a medical one, to leave them starving for even a day. "

My shock was not in smaller feedings, but that people would feed a perfectly healthy beardie every few days.

Thanks for clarifying. Very helpful to know.

 

[Jess]

WolfMama, have you had an adult beardie before?

I agree with Randommonks. Yeah, everyone says that beardies should switch to veggies when they are adults, but that doesn't mean that they actually want to. They eat what they like whenever you put it front of them, and just like little kids, many of them won't go for veggies when they know they can hold out for something better. And, like I said before, adults WILL gain unhealthy amounts of weight if you let them eat their heart's desire in live food... Even if it's a healthy staple. This happened to Dudley, which is why I've cut back on his live food so much in the last 2 years. Do I feel even the least bit sad or guilty or find it heart wrenching when I don't feed him bugs for over a week because he won't eat his salad? Absolutely not. Controlling when and how much my lizard eats is not in any way, shape or form cruel, because it is healthier for him in the end. Dudley has no concept of what is good for him to eat or his "portion control", and since he is under my care it is my responsibility to keep him healthy, with a feeding schedule that keeps him at a good weight. And if he is at a stable, healthy weight when I offer him live once or twice a week, so be it. If I let him go all out on his food, he would be incredibly obese and have fatty liver disease by now.

I'm sorry if this is coming off as rude, because that's not what I'm intending. No matter what kind of pet you have, feeding them as much as they want because you feel bad for "denying" them food is not good for them, and it will hurt them in the long run.

 

[snazzyglasses]

Lots of posts on here since last time I checked
I don't want to hop in and start slinging opinions, mostly because I'm too tired lol! But I think the original post was about not following crappy petstore advice (and how terrible it is when animals suffer due to awful advice), like the crazy "6 crickets per day for a growing baby" petstore-given advice I read on here somewhere a while back... I don't even know how petstores come up with that. :shock:

 

[XtinaBeardieMom]

It seems like there's a big misunderstanding concerning the disagreement here...

I think what WolfMama means is that a beardie should be offered food every day, whether it's bugs and/OR veggies. Of course there are exceptions (baby beardies must be fed live food 3x per day, brumation, medical reasons, etc).

It seems there's been a disconnect in our definitions of "feeding" too... for some reason, a lot of people here tend to relate the word "feeding" automatically to live food only, when I really think WolfMama meant veggies too. It's true that you can't force a beardie to eat - so maybe saying "feed" them every day isn't the most precise terminology being that feeding implies that they actually eat it. I think we can all agree that they should be offered food every day (veggies and/or bugs) regardless of whether they eat it or not. Again, if your beardie is brumating or on a medical fast, then that's obviously an exception.

Just a personal example - my 2yr old girl Lotus hasn't eaten anything (except liquid supplements) in over a month. First we thought she was gravid, then we thought it was brumation, but she never went down to sleep... so now we're not sure what the deal is (she's still over 500g at 18" long so she's not emaciated or anything) but we're working with Tracie & taking her to the vet soon to figure it out, also just ordered some Critical/Carnivore Care. POINT BEING... I still put a salad in Lotus's bowl every day and offer her bugs once or twice a week, even though I'm 99% sure she won't touch any of it. My 14 month old beardie boy Captain is offered salad every day and live food every other day. Sometimes he eats & sometimes he doesn't, but he still gets the option every day.

So, am I right WolfMama... did you mean we should always give them the OPTION to eat every day, barring certain circumstances? And did you mean veggies and/OR live feeders?

P.S. I also agree with both sides in saying that a dragon can and will become overweight if they are allowed to eat as many feeders as they please every day (unless they're babies)... AND I agree that unlimited veggies will NOT make a dragon overweight, or at least it's nearly impossible anyway if you're feeding the right staple stuff. Jess - I don't think you did anything wrong by only offering your dragon greens until he got hungry enough to start eating them again.

 

[Jess]

And, while I did not address it, it is suggested by the more better care sheets, that even adults be fed all the live 1x/day So, I do not feel that live STAPLE should be denied, either. Nevertheless, a salad should always be provided on a daily basis, and the comment made in the opening post was with regard to people who state that thye only feed their beardies 5x a week or less. Thus, there is really no reason to deny them even live on a daily basis, other then for medical or health necessity.

This is what I am disagreeing with in my last post. WolfMama specifically claimed that she thought adults should be fed "all the live 1x/day" and that we shouldn't "deny" live food daily. Feeding an adult all the live food it wants everyday is NOT healthy, and it WILL get fat.

It really just rubs me the wrong way that the OP is suggesting you are a "cruel" owner if your beardie isn't fed every day, and that you are "denying" it food my not feeding bugs daily, and that her way is the only right way. From my experience, reptile feeding schedules are not that black and white.

 

[WolfMama]

WolfMama, have you had an adult beardie before?
I agree with Randommonks.

LOL. No offense, but no surprise there, given your behavior on this thread and in what was sent to me in PM.

Well, Jess, based on the PM I received from Randommonks, and your immediate reply to my response to her, it has confirmed that you are having a conversation outside of this thread that has resulted in your commentaries, and attacking in defense of one another here. I'm sorry to see that. Random, you outright stated in your PM that I should not have “corrected” Jess? That was a shocking thing to say and a rather questionable one as well. If someone is wrong, I will state thusly To be sent a PM informing me that I should not relay my feelings on this thread was highly inappropriate and rather bullying to say the least. It has a school yard mentality and a troublesome one at that. As an adult, and advocate, I do not partake in such behavior nor appreciate it. Odd, however, you feel it acceptable for Jess to come to the thread I began and disagree with me on something as serious and inhumane as to feel the denying of food for a healthy beardie were not a big deal?

To the topic… For anyone to feel it is okay to simply, carelessly, laxidaisily, lazily, and cruely “skip a day” is cruel and such a person should not have any creature in their care. Jess was in defense of this, and you attacked in what you deemed as defending Jess. You obviously did not read my posts and based your perception on what was told to you

I now see that Jess is very young Allow me to express, again, that you read my posts and replies in their entirety, and to please review the topic and intent of said thread.

I've had nothing been wonderful experiences here. I appreciate the replies and support I've received on this thread - and saddened that both of you chose to defend those who chose to deny a bearded dragon of food just for the sake of it.

No, I've not had an adult beardie, yet , which you clearly already know from my posts Thus, that would appear to be a snide comment. Kindly refrain from such, and let’s keep this on an adult level

In any event, I know others have. I am an adult And I have a great deal of experience And I have a heart of compassion in which I am a firm believe that ALL living creatures deserve to have food, water, shelter, and love

And based on your reasoning, you have not the experience, nor the training and education in the topics you’ve addressed, that I have

Nevertheless, I would not tell someone they have not to offer. Anyone with a loving, caring heart, has something to offer I enjoy hearing from new beardie parents/care takers, as they bring new light to conversations and ideas as a result of their enthusiasm and love for their beardies It is when one begins to view things in an automated, detached – without embracing themselves and how their actions affect those whose care they’ve chosen to place in their own hands – when things become of less value to offer views.

As you brought up other creatures as your correlation to feeding (and I will address that as well), I have both rescued and raised 2 dogs, 8 cats, 4 birds, 11 guinea pigs, and
several hamsters (not to mention fish, snails, newts – LOL). Not including those we’ve taken into foster care And I cannot begin to count the number that came with sicknesses due to neglect, malnourishment, dehydration, and shelter from alleged care takers. I, at times, feel like I’ve become a medical expert from the guinea pigs, alone (and we had a lab rescue guinea pig also )

And for the joy of life was that – the most wonderful privilege for which I am eternally grateful - was to raise one amazing, wonderful, fantastic and terrific son

But, by your premise, then you should deny a baby beardie, too. After all, they don't know when it's too much? You state that a human child can be overfed, a dog, etc. Well, so can a puppy, a kitten. You mention other "pets" and overfeeding - are you suggesting that you would deny a dog or a cat daily food? That is what this topic was about

It's no different, except for the fact that you provide live to an adult with live 1x/day - and a salad. And, again (this is exhausting), there is no excuse to deny a salad. You’ve completely ignored my replies).

I've repeatedly said that, when necessary for health reasons, there are occasions where food may need to be limited.

As I’ve stated, I DO have a son who is now an adult And, no my son never preferred junk food, simply because he was given healthy food and when he could eat all the fresh fruits and veggies he wanted and loved them As a person who is extremely versed in human nutrition, and has counseled others, it is a well known fact that (baring a psychological/emotional disorder) a person will not overeat when they remove junk food from their diet The body will crave what it needs, and stop being hungry when nutritional needs are met. People overeat because they fill their stomachs with cooked processed foods and their nutritional needs are not met, so they continue to be hungry. Other reasons are "blockers' which are products in food that cause the brain to shut off the feeling of being "full" thus expanding their stomachs.

And, no, I have never once denied my son other forms of food because he did not like a vegetable And, yes, I do feel that is incredibly cruel! I’m sorry if that was done to you. There are many ways to prepare food and many options that can be taken in order to achieve the goal of nutrition.

This is the mistake people make when feeding their critters. The are accustomed to associating their own diet of junk and processed foods with the same as critters who are fed non-junk food. Since most people are used to eating in this fashion in today’s society, they do not comprehend that facts of proper nutrition.

They will not overeat when fed properly. Now, if your bearded dragon is having a problem with vegetables, then you need to take humane measures. What you have described was not starving your bearded dragon, but providing him vegetables, and I would hope the necessary amount of live food. I've repeatedly said there is a difference

Additionally, when their stomach is full, it's full. What I've seen people HERE advise (as well as a rescuer I’ve met), and what a breeder I know has suggested, is to feed them their salad FIRST and the live food later on. In that way they will eat their salad Once they begin eating a salad, they will like it, they will crave what they need.

I also find that the biggest problem is bearded dragons having never been fed fresh fruits and vegetables by careless breeders, and pet shops. A breeder I know has hatchlings eating veggies straight from their hand. I saw this for myself. That, as opposed to the pet shop where we adopted our beardie from whom never was offered to him vegetable matter. So, it is completely foreign to him. We are currently in the process of trying all sorts of vegetables to find what will entice him to eat. There is a variety out there that can be used and, again, I am a strong believer of making every humane attempt to help them to learn to eat their veggies. And, again, thanks to the wonderful people here, and a couple of knowledgeable people we know, we can relax about this matter and take the time to explore and encourage Sadly, not everyone has that time frame, if they have adopted a neglected bearded dragon. But, I am saddened for those who will take the advice of others who would suggest denying food as a first resort I’ve seen far too many people who CARE and are hurting because of such ill advice. I’ve also seen far too many people chose what is convenient, rather then what is compassionate and right

As I’ve repeatedly stated (and it seems to have been ignored by you both, as my many other comments have been, and I’ve been taken out of context): An adult bearded dragon isn't offered live food 3x a day They are offered it 1x/day Again, the entire 75%-80% that I've said many times

So, if one were to choose the correlation between children and beardies (although I don't think it necessarily applies ... as I have already said, they won't overeat on healthy food Overeating is the result of junk food. I did say that they can be overfed on "junk" food (such as butterworms and waxworms). I’ve, also, seen many people here advocate for the humane option of variety That is an excellent option.

Our baby beardie has not taken to collard greens, mustard greens, etc. We gave him dandelions from our backyard (organic, as we kept them for our guinea pigs ) and he ate those for a few days, however, a cold snap came in and they are no longer available from our yard. We did offer him dandelions from the health food store, but he did not care for those. I saw that beardeddragon.co offers dandelion seeds so when I place an order with them I am going to grow those indoors (of course I am being kidded by my family and friends who live in our part of the country, as dandelions are considered a weed and pest. To others it is food I find this amusing However, I digress.

Animals have a more innate ability to not overeat on healthy food. You simply can't over feed a healthy beardie on a salad. LOL. I’ve said that repeatedly, and you’ve clearly missed those comments – and continue to defend your stand (which I thought you’d abandoned but I see, sadly, you stand by it ) that it is acceptable to just skip a day of feeding for no reason of absolute necessity for the bearded dragon.

Nevertheless, I repeatedly said, SALAD, before the two of you began this exchange It is not until the last exchange where I included the live food. All appropriate care sheets clearly state that they should be fed both live and salad - daily. This is not junk food It's healthy food In no way would a caring and informed person advise against feeding a healthy bearded dragon on a daily basis. And, since animals can't speak for themselves, I will declare, it is cruel to do so.

This topic was about denying them food on a daily basis, and both of you have turned it into an attack and it's very sad that you both feel it is acceptable to deny a bearded dragon food for a day. Again, I've repeatedly mentioned salad? Why would you deny them a salad?

Again, I also said that it was important for a bearded dragon to eat 75% to 80% vegetable. So, I'm very perplexed at where your argument is?

It seems that you did not read my posts, nor replies, nor acknowledged the purpose of the opening post, and just chose to post in disagreement.

Jess, both you and and Random have thus stand by your stand that:

But if an adult beardie isn't fed every single day, I don't think it's the end of the world.

That had nothing to do with NEEDING to limit food, as you have suggested in your most recent reply.

It's very sad that both of you find it acceptable to just not bother to feed a bearded dragon, or cat, or dog, etc. for a day. You seem adamant about defending that, and it's very sad – even disturbingly distressing.

It is, equally disappointing that both of you have defended this to such a degree as to include and defend each other’s view that bearded dragons are

“very hardy creatures that have survived all manners of enclosures and care. I, for one, will not judge someone if they choose to raise a healthy beardie differently than I do.”

That is simply not the case, and you, Jess have stated you are in agreement with this as well. I defer to my previous reply on that matter.

I will stand up as a voice for the animals who have no voice. I have always done so, and will continue to do so (as I have for children, the elderly and the handicapped). To those with ears to hear, PLEASE - they can only sit there in their viv and watch you They cannot come out and get their own food. They are helpless and at YOUR mercy. PLEASE do not sit there and not feed them unless you need to for their health! If you feel that it's no big deal to just skip food here and there, and you don't think it's cruel, then get a stuffed animal. They are not ornaments. They are living beings. The deserve proper nutrition, housing/shelter, and yes, love.You either agree that a bearded dragon should be provided proper food on a daily basis or you do not. You stated from the outset that you do not feel it is any issue if a bearded dragon is denied food on a daily basis. I completely disagree and will continue to URGE people to NOT do such a thing.

Please do not hijack this thread. I shall put both Random and Jess on my foe list – so please do not reply to my posts hence forth, and please do not attempt to send me PMs as what was sent was inappropriate and harassing. (To those who sent supportive emails and PMs, I thank you ) It is disappointing that such measures need to be taken. It is a first for me. I cannot and will not become involved with anyone who would go through such lengths as to defend denying any critter nutrition for a day (outside of medical/health reasons – lol I’m beginning to drone-type that line. LOL.) I enjoy the likeminded people I’ve come to know here, who share their compassion and love for these wonderful bearded dragons (and other critters – people included ).

Thank you.

 

[WolfMama]

LOL Snazzy, on the tired I certainly know that feeling

Thank you for your reply, Snazzy! You are indeed correct That, and the people on youtube and the net who continue to regurgitate what they’ve been taught by petshops (and it’s amazing how many books provide the same information. We had the same experience when we first adopted guinea pigs. Thanks to wonderful rescuers we received wonderful information. I highly recommend Peter Gurney He’s passed on, now, but he was wonderful. But I digress ). I’ve seen so many people come back regurgitating this information. Where someone would get the idea that feeding a bearded dragon, as a recommendation for proper care, 5x a week is beyond me. I think I’ve seen too many people that view them as collectable items and objects

Sad that people go into the pet shop business solely as a means to make money They can go into any other business with inanimate objects if they aren’t invested in caring about the animals.

I’ve pondered that very question, Snazzy (where they come up with there information). After taking extensively with them over several weeks, and watching the employee interactions with other customers, I’ve come to a conclusion:

It’s cost effective. The company trains their employees to feed the bearded dragons on this ration as it is enough to sustain small bearded dragons. It’s not fulfilling, it’s cruel, but it sustains them. I was told by more then one employee that there have been times when reptiles were “overfed” by an unknowing employee, at night, and in the morning, they found the poor reptile eaten to death by crickets I was horrified at the thought! So much for their proper training.

Also, by telling people this, they figure, “oh, 5 crickets a day, no big deal.” Just as with their inexpensive “kit” set up. It sells. Interesting they have a 30 day return policy. Just enough time for the poor critter to survive

And we can see here, and even my own experience, how many of us were given that misinformation and did not know otherwise because of the likes of people who regurgitate it. I researched for two weeks. Vet sites, private sites, reptile sites and other store sites… It was not until I came here and found out how much of that information was FALSE.

As a long time advocate for the loving care for a child, critter, or any vulnerable person, I find it very upsetting when I see any misinformation that can lead to less then. The day I posted the OP was after seeing a variety of Youtube videos that regurgitated the same misinformation that the petshop gave to us – and similarly worse – and seeing replies made to people giving bad advice, and encouraging that it was no big deal to not provide them with food daily, etc. And, to top it off, shortly after the OP, a person we know had been feeding their beardie inappropriate staple food and chalking it off that they are “dusted” so it’s no big deal. <sigh>

Thanks, Snazzy, for your support and understanding! It is very much appreciated! (they need a hug smilie here Is there a hug smilie? LOL.

Lots of posts on here since last time I checked
I don't want to hop in and start slinging opinions, mostly because I'm too tired lol! But I think the original post was about not following crappy petstore advice (and how terrible it is when animals suffer due to awful advice), like the crazy "6 crickets per day for a growing baby" petstore-given advice I read on here somewhere a while back... I don't even know how petstores come up with that. :shock: