New to Snakes ~ what is normal growth? shed?

[Floof]

Ashley-- Ball pythons don't brumate.. IIRC, some breeders will drop the temperatures by a couple degrees at the start of winter to help induce breeding activity (though I may be mixing up boa constrictors and BPs here--been awhile since I read anything about breeding practices for either), but that's the closest they get.

A ball python going off feed in winter is often doing so because that's generally the start of "breeding season" for them. (Incidentally, the same is true for Woma pythons--my big male gave me a scare this last winter when he decided he was going to go off feed for 2 months, starting just a few weeks after I got him. I even took him to the vet to make sure nothing was wrong.. Just to have him start eating again a week later. Little snot! =P)

But, yeah, like Ashley said, he's probably not going to go off feed in the winter unless you purposely put him into brumation (meaning, temperatures kept in the 50s with no warm spot for a couple months). He's not old enough to worry about him going off feed for breeding season, either, which would come in springtime (and, again, not all of them do--many, if not most, male colubrids will happily keep eating through breeding season whether you give him a female or not).

 

[ashleyelsha]

Ashley-- Ball pythons don't brumate.. IIRC, some breeders will drop the temperatures by a couple degrees at the start of winter to help induce breeding activity (though I may be mixing up boa constrictors and BPs here--been awhile since I read anything about breeding practices for either), but that's the closest they get.

A ball python going off feed in winter is often doing so because that's generally the start of "breeding season" for them. (Incidentally, the same is true for Woma pythons--my big male gave me a scare this last winter when he decided he was going to go off feed for 2 months, starting just a few weeks after I got him. I even took him to the vet to make sure nothing was wrong.. Just to have him start eating again a week later. Little snot! =P)

wow, I've had my ball for 7 years and when it first happened I was told it was brumation and I guess I never really cared enough to investigate it further. I remember reading articles on it at the time, accepting that my snake wasn't going to starve itself, and moving forward, lol. My husband doesn't understand why I love going to forums, but this is one of the reasons why, it spurs me to research and learn more. And the discussions can always be eye opening.
So now that you said that I have done a little research and here is what I have found, of course the internet can always provide conflicting information. So now I understand it a little better.

"One thing to note is that during the colder winter months Ball pythons have been known to go “off feed” for 2 to 6 months at a time. This can be disconcerting for an owner but as long as your snake maintains its weight and is otherwise healthy it is a good indication that they have entered a natural state known as brumation wherein they slow down their metabolic activity to nearly nothing."
Source:
http://pet-snakes.com/species-list/ball-pythons


"Royal pythons, commonly called ball pythons, are constrictors native to Africa. Unlike some other pythons, they don't grow longer than 6 feet. Unlike many other animals, pythons brumate instead of hibernating. During the period of brumation, their body temperature is lower and their metabolism is slower. Though it is not necessary to brumate or hibernate royal pythons in captivity, some will voluntarily begin eating less during the winter months."
Source:
http://www.ehow.com/info_10047658_royal-python-hibernation.html



"Wild Brumation

In the ball python's native environment, temperatures don't normally drop low enough to necessitate brumation. In fact, the winter months are this snake's breeding season. They tend to eat less in preparation for breeding and may eat additional food to build strength before entering a hunger strike. During rare cold snaps and in inclement weather, pythons may respond by entering brumation. During this period, the animal's body temperature drops, helping it to conserve energy in taxing environments.

Risks of Brumation

Because pythons only brumate in extraordinary conditions, forcing them into brumation in captivity is risky. Only healthy royal pythons will survive the process of brumation, and the loss of food is taxing to their bodies."


Read more: Royal Python Hibernation | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/info_10047658_royal-python-hibernation.html#ixzz24f0UHVvn

 

[ashleyelsha]

sorry to the OP for taking it off topic... didn't mean to.

 

[blondie098]

never worry about hijacks when I can learn new stuffs the whole snake world is new to us, so we're learning and researching and asking questions as we go! I love our little guy after only about a month of having him -- so I can easily see him being addictive like our dragons... we joke over on the beardie boards ... "They're like pringles, you can't have just one"

 

[Floof]

Hmmm. Interesting. I've never heard tell that ball pythons brumate--all that I've heard has been closer to the last source you quoted. Temperatures cool slightly and ball pythons will go off feed as breeding season begins, but they don't brumate because their native range doesn't get cold enough for them to have developed that instinct, much less any need for the temp drop.

Let's not forget here that brumation entails temperatures so low that the snake literally does not function. With the majority of species, you're looking at temperatures ranging as low as the low 40s up to no more than 60F. I highly doubt ball pythons experience temperatures this low, much less the below freezing temperatures that generally demand a brumation period (that is, retreating to a more mild temperature burrow and going dormant to retain as much heat and body mass as possible to ride out the literally unsurvivable temperatures outside) in their native range.

I went hunting on the Ball-Pythons.net forum (very reputable forum--I'm always wary of "eHow" type sources when it comes to animal husbandry) and found some info regarding this.

This thread goes into a brief discussion regarding brumation and ball pythons: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...t-eating-time&highlight=ball+python+brumation

I wonder at whether some of those sources made the same mistake as j_h_smith did in the above thread: Referred to the slight drop in temperatures that some breeders use as "brumation," which it is not.

Another post pointing out the difference: http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?97131-bp-brumation&p=1110003&viewfull=1#post1110003
"Ball pythons do not go through brumation. They are from africa. Brumation is when the temps are so low that the snake goes into hibernation. This is more of a cornsnake colubrid phenomena.

Now, some people do put their ball pythons through a slight temp drop (like 4* or so). This is just so that they experience a change and it triggers the urge to breed. It is not brumation. "

From all that I can tell, it seems the term "brumation" when used in reference to ball pythons is more often than not a case of simply using the wrong term. I keep finding posts referencing brumation and then clarification later on explaining that by "brumation," the person meant that temp drop of just a few degrees to indicate seasonal change. Still not brumation because, again, brumation is referring to a period of dormancy due to unsurvivable, cold temperatures.

I'm thinking this stands true for what was told to you originally. Simply the wrong term being put to a much different phenomenon.

To summarize... No, ball pythons don't go through "brumation" meaning a period of dormancy due to severe temperature drop, in the sense that species coming from more temperate climates with true winters like our corns and kings do. In the BP's native range, temperatures are actually fairly stable--especially taking into consideration that ball pythons generally inhabit underground burrows and termite nests, where temperatures are even more stable. They do occasionally experience a drop in temperature by a few degrees as "winter" sets in, and some breeders will mimic this to help induce breeding activity. However, this drop of just a few degrees is not "brumation" despite some misguided use of the term.

As far as the sources you quoted are concerned... That is exactly why I do not use caresheets from websites like eHow. It's reputable reptile-specific websites (and, even better, species-specific sites and forums when possible) or bust for me.

Sorry, long post there. Anyway, I hope that helps clear things up. It sounds like this is just a matter of miscommunication.

 

[ashleyelsha]

As far as the sources you quoted are concerned... That is exactly why I do not use caresheets from websites like eHow. It's reputable reptile-specific websites (and, even better, species-specific sites and forums when possible) or bust for me.

Sorry, long post there. Anyway, I hope that helps clear things up. It sounds like this is just a matter of miscommunication.

Good point. I didn't take the time to get down to a good source. Even books that you think are reputable can have conflicting information.For what it's worth, the ehow website does have a list of their references:


"Ball Pythons"; Colette Sutherland; 2009
Reptile Channel; Snake Winter Anorexia; Margaret A. Wissman
"Complete Ball Python"; Kevin McCurley; 2005

 

[Floof]

I wouldn't personally know the quality of the books listed, but I found the second source (online article): http://www.reptilechannel.com/snakes/snake-care/snake-winter-anorexia.aspx

"Ball pythons do not hibernate, but some breeders do put them through a “brumination” or cooling down period prior to breeding season, as this is thought to increase clutch size. You should not be concerned about bruminating the snake, who is your pet and not a breeder."

The author does not specify what she means by... ahem... "bruminating" (I can only assume she means "brumation"), but comments that they don't "hibernate."

It's unfortunate how confusing terms can be, and how so many people fail to offer any specifics which leaves you wondering: Does she mean they "do not hibernate" in the sense that they do not go through the kind of "hibernation" period that a mammal experiences? Or does she mean they "do not hibernate" in the sense that they don't go through a brumation period like a snake from a climate that experiences actual winters?

For that matter, by brumation (or brumination, as it were.. giggle!), does she mean a simple cool down of a few degrees, or actual by definition brumation like corn snakes, king snakes, etc go through?

I seem to recall Kevin McCurley's book referred to as a very reputable source of information, the last time I did any in-depth reading on BPs (a few years ago now), which has me curious whether he ever uses the term "brumation" and what he actually means by the term (cool down or actual brumation). I assume he means a simple cool down, considering his widely known success with breeding (from what I can find, Kevin McCurley is the owner of NERD), but I'm not curious enough to fork over $65 for his book to find out.

My primary qualm with the use of the term brumation here is the fact that "brumation" actually refers to dropping temperatures very low to mimic a winter period of dormancy as would be experienced in a climate such as North America's. Someone coming from a background of colubrid keeping and breeding who doesn't know better when they see this term used for ball pythons (or other tropical, non-brumating species) may well assume they need a brumation period such as their temperate climate colubrids would require. Thus, they put their snakes down for a brumation in the 40s or 50s such as they would with their colubrids and, when they remove their snakes from brumation to find their ball pythons dead or otherwise on death's door with respiratory infection or other cold-induced sickness, they are left confused because, after all, don't ball pythons brumate? And doesn't brumation mean a temperature drop of 20 degrees, give or take 10?

It's unfortunate that even a simple term like brumation fails to hold a universally understood meaning, but that's where further research into the matter, and what is truly meant by this or that comment, becomes important.

 

[blondie098]

Taylor, he ate both hoppers tonight (dangit, I laid down for a nap, and he ate then, the kids weren't paying attention either)... so I'll confirm that he's handling both just fine he's hiding, so I assume he ate them in succession and has just one long lump LOL... I'm gonna steal that tube!

 

[Floof]

That's great! I'm glad he's eating so well for you. And definitely sounds like he's ready for the next size up!

 

[ashleyelsha]

my kings are bigger piggies than my corns, sounds like yours is eating just fine and you shouldn't have any problems

 

[blondie098]

these two weren't very "juicy" LOL ... so hubby took my X-acto and poked a couple holes in them... ew. Gives a new spin to being a graphic designer LOL...

 

[blondie098]

Ok, he ate Sunday -- then spent Monday/Tuesday in his spa... but then this morning he fouled his water... not a poo, just a good sized urate... and he stayed in the water, gross!

So, do you pluck them out of their water to clean it all up? Or wait until they leave the water then clean up both snake and pool? He was taking forever to get out of the cesspool, so I plucked him out to wash him and the dish... I'm just hoping that didn't stress him out too much? He didn't strike at us when we did it, I am hoping that is a good sign... by the way, he loves to slither into and stuff himself into my husband's shirt pocket. Looks hilarious, we joke that BJ is his "guard dog".

He is doing very well when we handle him, he's curious, doesn't strike at us hardly at all. And after his sink bath today, he slithered up into his fleece ropes, and hung out there for a few hours... I braided them to be all multicolored, so he blends in

 

[Floof]

If he fouls his water, definitely take him out and clean it--don't wait for him to finish his "bath." Since he's pretty well settled in by now, it probably doesn't cause him much stress to shoo him from his dish, and it's just plain a better idea than risking any sort of bacterial infection.

D'awww... He sounds so cute! I remember when my big corn girl was little. Her favorite place to curl up was in my bra. LOL.

 

[blondie098]

yeah, we figured it couldn't be good to sit in that! yuk.

We take dragons with us sometimes (my old store JoAnn Fabrics didn't appreciate that too much a couple weeks ago, one girl nearly tinkled LOL)... It would be my luck that BJ would find that nice warm spot, and I'd have to go somewhere... LOL

 

[blondie098]

Ok, I believe Beetlejuice is a pig -- not a snake LOL. Three different pet stores were out of most sizes of feeders (he's at weanling mouse size). So we had to get rat fuzzies -- I checked them carefully, they were the same grammage ... he snarfed it no problem, but the little turd went back looking for more! Geez, what a pig! The guy at least let me pick out my pick of the feeders, so I sized them up to my 2-knuckles long & fatness of my thumb (BJ's fat chub width + a smidge)... I couldn't believe he kept returning to his dish looking for more! Oink.

So we set the video camera up to capture his "meal" ... he was none the wiser... but now I got a new question, after viewing that... was a little creepy to watch LOL...

It appeared that as he was engulfing it, that he was changing the shape of the feeder... do they squeeze it and break its bones to "reshape it" to help them swallow it easier? It almost seemed like the lump was longer than the feeder once he got it in... just another one of those crazy questions! Was kinda funny to watch him pick it up and move it around his viv to get a better trajectory LOL.

Usually, he goes and hides after eating... now he's starting to be a little exhibitionist... He was standing up tall up the sidewall of his viv after eating, played like that for about an hour after he ate... not sure if he was just in an adventurous mood, or maybe he's a little more accustomed to us now? Funny how my cutie pie can look so ferocious when his bottom jaw is all unhinged and out of whack.