New Owner/Dragon Tremors

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tyryce

Hatchling Member
I have periodically seen my dragon having tremors and tightness of back legs. I was told this was MBD. I will provide you with all my background information below because I am wondering if I need to take the dragon to a vet and if so what is the best way to transport him (i have a 2.5 hour drive). Or if I have caused him some long term damage to his nervous system. I will try to be as specific as possible.

He was born at the beginning of October and I got him when he was about 2 weeks old or so and he was 4 1/2 inches and weight about 4-5 grams during that time. He is close to 2 1/2 months now and I weighed him today at 21.3 grams and he is just short of 7 1/2 inches. He is in a 40 gallon Zilla cage but I have halfed it to 20 gallons for now. He currently uses cork bark (this is recent) to bask on. I switched him up from the vines from before because he was too large for them. Basking area at top is 105 degrees with a 100 w bulb. The range hood I have also has a full length 10% UVB repti bulb. At night the top of his basking area is heated with a 75 W infrared. Substrate used is powertowel which gets changed once a week and his tank is cleaned out.

Diet (starting three weeks ago) consists of crickets and salad in the morning. The salad consists of Arugula, Parsley, Chinese Cabbage, Bok Choy, Coriander, strawberries, raspberries, carrots, occasional kale, mangos mashed together. The crickets get dusted with Rep-Cal calcium everyday (no phosphorous and no D3) and with Calcium and Reptivite with D3 multivitamin every second day. He is fed 2 week old crickets about 10 in the morning and 10 in the evening two hours before is lights are changed for the night. Crickets are kept in a cricket keeper, watered and fed Flukes gut loading food. I know that I should have collard and mustard greens but these are unavailable at the grocery stores here so instead I looked up some references that show the Calcium:phosphorous ratios of vegetables and fruits to find some other alternatives that had Calcium:phosphorous >than 1.5:1. At this point he eats some salad and I am not sure if he eats salad everyday.

In the first two weeks that I had him he was fed romaine lettuce and mealworms (I now know this is wrong!) In the first week he did eat uncut up mealworms. Then I found out that food needed to be smaller so the worms were cut into pieces. Could I have caused him some damage with these larger worms??? He has never shown any sign of a blockage (pooping is always consistent and looks right) Worms were dusted with a multivitamin daily. I also tried chicken with broth baby food and blueberries and raspberries. At this time the UVB bulb I had for him (in this two weeks) had a lower % because it was one I use for my turtles. In the third week I cut mealworms out of the diet and replaced them with cut up pheonix worms; dusted and he was still fed romaine.

I then stopped with the phoenix worms because they spoiled so quickly. Is there a way to keep them longer like the crickets? He was still being fed romaine. At this point a week later I noticed while he was sitting on my arm that his back legs started trembling and he looked like he was throwing his head back. This quickly passed. the following week he fell from his vines, laying on his back on the floor his limbs were stretched out and stiff and there was some trembling. I phoned the reptile department at petland (There are a few there that I consult with about my painted turtles) and he suspected MBD and went over lighting, and diet and supplements. Since then I have changed the diet and added the daily calcium supplement as above. I thought things were going well until tonight because when I switched to the night light he was freaking out as he usually does when the red light comes on and he grabs at the tank sides like he is trying the escape. He usually settles and eventually goes to sleep but tonight as he was standing upright against the tank side on his hind legs he began to tremble then he fell flat and pulled himself forward with his front legs then his back legs trembled for a bit. This passed after about a minute then he stood up and breathed heavy for a bit then went up to his basking spot.

I am thinking that I have not solved this problem and was wondering if there is anything else I need to do. Here are a few other behavioral things that might help

He runs around the tank just fine on all fours. The position of his feet are correct. I don't notice swelling of the limbs but it is difficult to tell when he is this small.
He is quite alert, no sluggishness.
He appears to shed normally (he has shed three times now that I noticed)
He doesn't like be soaked in warm water yet but I need to do this more often.
He is still not used to be handled (he is handled around feeding times for short periods)
He has no trouble getting up and down his basking log.
He is eating well - should I be feeding him more crickets? but I want him to start eating more greens at the same time.
He tends to freak out when the Infrared light comes on. he tries to escape from the tank. Sometimes at night he sits under where the bulb is and some nights he just goes to sleep on the floor. How warm should is tank be at night at his age?

If anyone can give me any further advice or direction it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
 

Krisymof2

Hatchling Member
I have read on here that the infared night lights have been know to disrupt a beardies sleep. This might explain the night time "freaking out". There are ceramic heat emitters that put off no light if you need the extra heat at night. I've read that its ok for it to cool down just as long as it doesn't get below 65 F at night. (How are you measuring your temps?) As far as the other stuff you might have to wait for Tracie or one of the other moderators to help you. Good luck.
 

tyryce

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
I measure my temps with a marina digitial thermometer that has a sensor probe on the end. When I measure temps he doesn't like...it's kinda funny because he'll bite the probe. As far as the ceramic heat emitters they won't fit in my hood will they? I have a screen top lid (I have cats) so does this ceramic heat emitter get installed in the inside of the screen lid...I'll have to rig something up. But that makes sense about the Infrared because last night he was under it on his basking spot and didn't seem to want to go to sleep but eventually did about 12:30 in the morning.

I was also wondering if these episodes he has (which I seem to catch about once a week) are genetic related at all?

Thanks for your reply, I will continue to check to see if other moderators have additional info.
 

tyryce

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
I dust with calcium everday. The calcium supplement I use is Rep-Cal without phosphorous and without D3 (nervous about OD on Vit D). Every second day his food is dusted with the Retivite with D3 supplement. I know the UVB I have is 10%. I have to check my bill to see what brand. It is either Repti-glo or Repti-sun...I remember that the box was red anyway. When I find out this evening I will get back to you.

If your dragon is showing syptoms of MBD and you use corrective measures how long does it take before you don't see a problem anymore? (if it can be corrected).

I would like to attach pics of my dragon. I've taken them in different stages of his growth so far. How does one attache pics...I'm new to this site and am not sure.
 

akingsley9000

Gray-bearded Member
Ok - please do check to see which one you have - it is also stamped on the bulb. The repti-sun is great the repti-glo is not. As far as the calcium they need the d3 to help them absorb it. It would take an extreme amount to overdose him so I wouldn't worry about that especially at the age he is at he needs all the calcium he can get. You should be dusting one meal a day 5 days a week with calcium w/ d3 and 1 day with the multivit. Additionally, you need to make sure he can get within 6-8 inches of the bulb.

As far as the symptoms going away - it depends on how far along it is and the measures you take to correct it.

Where are you located? If its somewhere warm you can take him outside for some natural sunlight.

As far as the pictures - if you have a photobucket account you can use that to upload pictures - just copy the code and paste the img code in your post.
 

tyryce

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
Sorry to get back to you so late about the additional questions. The UV bulb I have is a Repti-glo. So I have made arrangements this weekend to have the following picked up for me as a friend will be travelling to where I get my supplies:
Repti-Sun 10% UVB bulb
Rep-Cal Calcium supplemet with D3 no Phosphorous
I will also be replacing my infrared night lamp with a ceremic heat emitter.

Also when I get home tonight I will be calling the vet to see if I can get an appointment. I'm starting to panic because his condition seems to be getting worse. He seems more stressed or skiddish than usual. This week after giving him a bath he tensed up afterwards, tightening up his back legs and quivering his tail. This morning he didn't crawl onto his basking area either when I turned on his lights. i went to move him and the same muscle tensioned happened. When I finally moved him up under the light he looked pretty stressed with dark markings on his belly showing. So I think he is getting worse.

I will keep you updated on how things are going. Oh yeah, I can't take him outside for some natural sunshine at this time of the year... I live in Southeast Sasktachewan, Canada..right now it ranges between-5 to -20 degrees Celsius.
 

Poisoned1

Gray-bearded Member
Just quickly want to add when he gets the reptisun make sure he gets THE FLOURESCENT TUBE BULB, anything else will cause major harm.
 

Drache613

BD.org Sicko
Staff member
Moderator
Hello,

Since you are in Canada, you will most likely find the Arcadia D3 12% flourescent tube light much easier than you will find the Reptisun 10 flourescent tube bulb.
Unfortunately, the Reptiglo 10 flourescent tube light just does not offer good enough UVB emissions. The main problems with it is that it emits a low wavelength UVB frequency that is close to UVC & it is not very favorable wavelength for D3 synthesis. That means he has not had ample opportunity to absorb calcium properly in order to keep his bones strong.
At this point, it is very possible to turn him around 100% but with proper UVB lighting. You are using good quality calcium supplementation, so just try to get a better UVB light, & it should help him out alot. It should not take very long for you to see a good change. Does he have any physical deformities yet, that you have noticed?
Good you are getting the Repcal calcium with D3 that should help him out as well.
I do not think feeding him some worms early on had any effect as to what is currently going on right now.
Have his stools been normal lately then, & has he appeared to have any problems when going to the bathroom?

Tracie
 

tyryce

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
Sorry to get back to you so late.
SUnday Dec 14th I went up to Regina to take him into a Reptile Vet. It was like -30 something with the wind chill so I froze my butt in the van for 2.5 hours but my dragon stayed toasty warm. I put him in a 51/2 gallon tank with outdoor carpeting on the bottom. Beneath the carpeting I put some heat packs so the carpet was warm. I also had to run two heat lamps over him to keep the temp between 98 - 103 degrees. He was really good during the ride and seemed pretty relaxed actually.

He had many tremors and seizing up while I was there so the vet got to see what I was talking about. She weighed him in at 30grams and said his weight is good for his age and his size too. She felt him around in the belly and lookied at his mouth and head ... a lot of poking and prodding but he actually did not show any signs of stress. She also said that he was not showing signs of dehydration. She felt his limb bones and said that the back ones feel good and maybe the front ones are a little soft for his age but because of his age she felt that to check his bone density would not be any help because the bones may not be fully developed yet. (he is about 2 1/2 months old now). Any way she felt that it could be one of two things 1)MBD or 2) Post traumatic signs due to poor nutrition. Number two would be irreversable especially if these 'episodes' are seizures. In order to rule one or the other out she attempted to check the calcium levels in his blood. She was unable to get enough blood from him to do the test. She also did not want to just give him a calcium injection without knowing what the calcium levels are in his blood because she had said that injection minerals and vitamins is different than taking orally and too much can have serious negative effects as well. She advised that I make sure he gets his supplements and Greens etc....stuff I have already been working on.

Anyway,
I was unable to get the Reptisun 10% UV bulb because the highest I could get is the 5% would this do for now until the 10% I ordered comes in? I am having one flown in from the Petsmart warehouse in the states...it should be here in about 1 week. To answer some additional questions that I have seen posted....he is pooping once a day and up until yesterday the poop looked normal. Yesterday it was grayish white instead of dark brown/black with whit on the end. His appetite is still strong with feeders...dusted crickets and pheonix worms but I can't seem to get him to eat his greens. For greens he is getting beet tops, turnip greens, Arugula, Parsley and I have shaved turnip and butternut squash. He is getting Ca and D3 on his crickets daily and Reptivite once a week. His condition doesn't seem to be getting any better because everytime he starts moving around a lot he has shaking sometimes while lying on his back. I'm trying to limit his moving around by feeding him directly from the tongs and he gets a warm soak every third day which he seems to enjoy.

This is heart breaking for me and I'm just sick over it (literally I'm so stressed that I haven't been well) and because I did this to him. Has anyone else had this problem with their dragon or one they have taken care of?
 

akingsley9000

Gray-bearded Member
The reptisun 5 is ok until your other bulb comes in. How close can he get to it?

I expect that once he is getting the proper UVB exposure he will be able to begin absorbing his calcium and he should be fine. It is going to take at least a week - 2 weeks before you start seeing any changes.

I went through this with my rescue - he was 7 months but had not been feed for over a month and never had UVB or calcuim. He would not eat when i got him and could not walk. Now he eats like a horse and zips around like a race car :mrgreen:

The most important thing is being consistent and patient.

Keep us posted!

~Allison
 

tyryce

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
He can get well within 6-8 inches of his bulb. His basking area is a very wide piece of cork bark so if he gets to warm he can move down the bark to a cooler temp. The top of the bark is 100-101 degrees. Midway down the bark (about mid hieght of the tank)is about 94 degrees. Thanks so much for the reply it gives me some hope over this situation then I can feel better about this. When I am able to figure out how to get pics posted I will send some of his enclosure and himself.
 
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