My beardie needs your help, please!

[KevinsMama]

I haven't read the comments past your update yet, but I had to jump in real quick and let you know, Tracie actually sells a gout kit. It includes Allpurinol! Only $30. That's where I got mine that is in the works of being on its way. She actually has tons of stuff she sells on her website, all great prices! To get to her site, just click on her username in green (Drache613). This will take you to her profile, then look down at the area where you would send PMs & there is a website link. I believe it's called http://www.bug-de-lite.com but i could be wrong there.

You could even email her for extra help. That's what I've been doing and she is extremely helpful. I'm going to go back & see the other comments and check my info & if I'm wrong on anything, I will edit.

*EDIT* I was wrong on the site name so I changed it. You should be able to just click the link I put there. Just go to products and it's on the 1st page. You will need his exact weight at the moment also. You even get to pick fun flavors lol!

I agree with AHBD, do NOT give up on him yet. Vets are considering the quality of life when they suggest euthanasia, but they also think the level of care needed for a recovery is to much for us. If you are able to provide everything he needs, there's no reason to give up yet. Kevin would've been euthanized a while back if I went by the vets recommendations. And she didn't even try to see what the real issue was. It was me through lots off trolling the forums here and help from Tracie & AHBD that even got to the gout diagnosis. Our situation is very different from yours & Telonic's though. I actually dropped a lamp on tiny Kevin & broke his leg. He still ran around all over the please for the 1st couple weeks, then started declining to not moving at all. The vet assumed there was damage to his spinal cord from the accident, but that didn't seem right since it took so long to start affecting him. What it was actually is an overdose of everything & he wasn't getting enough UVB to process it all because I had it mounted wrong. Which resulted in gout.

Now I've remedied all the issues and I see improvement in him nearly every day. It's not been easy, sometimes he goes days just looking pitiful, refusing to eat & really struggling. But then he will shock me with his will to survive. I don't have my Allpurinol yet, had quite a hiccup financially trying to get it, but will have it probably by the beginning of the week. I can't wait to see how he reacts to it.

It's not always a good ending with gout, especially when they are young, but there are plenty that have recovered from it. They heal soooooo slowly, it can seem nothing is getting better but it's all normal. Just don't give up on him yet.

I highly recommend ordering Tracies kit & emailing her. Other than the few meds, everything she has she compounds herself and is all natural so it's super easy on their bodies with no I'll side effects or risk of overdosing. Medications for these little guys is scary. If me or my family is sick, I'll go straight to prescription, man made meds no problem. But Beardies just aren't as adept at handling shocks to their systems like we are.

Sorry this was so long, I just seen a chance for me to be helpful and I want Telonic & Kevin to be recovery buddies with awesome happy endings! Good luck & keep us updated!

 

[dewittfamily]

Starla,

Thank you. I am hopeful AND impatioent, so I already ordered the Allupurinol from petmeds. HOWEVER, as soon as I saw your post I canceled the order and ordered kit from Tracie instead. Thanks for the info. She has been great - I have been PMing with her the past few days as well, and she never mentioned having products on hand. I imagine it's because she just wants to help and not look like she's pushing her website. Tip of the hat to you, Tracie if you read this - you really are a stellar individual.

Hopefully I will have the kit soon - pet meds was 5-7 days, even paying for expedited shipping. We'll see what happens, but I am still worried. I had all husbandry setup correctly from the day we brought him home and he was serioulsy thriving. Grew 5 inches in 3 months, acted crazy, etc. May not have had enough veggies (almost none as he wouldn't eat them), but other than that I know he ate well too. Just hoping that maybe, even if genetic, that with the right care and diet that he can get back on his feet (literally). Even if we have to make special accomodations the rest of his life, I'm willing to do it.

Again, thanks for the quick response and info for Tracie's site!

Tim

 

[KevinsMama]

I'm pretty sure she will ship today, but I may be wrong. I think she said if the order is placed before 2pm, ships same day. It takes 3-4 days to get from her to you, but my past order came on day 3, either way is faster than 5-7 for sure! I've commended her on not pushing her products also. That takes a different kind of person! Especially she is on here every night, suggesting people get this or that for whatever reason, knowing she has it! I actually just happened to stumble across her site. She never mentioned it LOL!

If your husbandry has been spot on, it likely is genetic. I don't remember if you mentioned where you got him or not? Was it a breeder or pet store? It's really hard to not know what's going on behind the scenes to create these little boogers. I can only imagine that chain stores are worse than puppy mills. I hate to think about that....

I understand not wanting him to suffer. Soon as the vet recommended it to me, it took me about 2 weeks to push it out of my mind. My family & users here all told me not to, but I still found myself staring at him, trying to figure out if he wanted to fight anymore or not. Honestly I still do. They can't tell us whether they are done or not. I ended up agreeing with my husband that if he is going to die, it will be at home where he is loved & spoiled with everything possible tried, rather than in a strange place, never knowing if he could've improved or not. I just spoil the little guy to death now. He has me wrapped around his fingers. I offer him so many different feeders & he knows if he doesn't want that one, he will turn his nose up at it & I'll bring out the next one. If he seems to be having a particularly rough day or I've had to torture him a bit more, I have wax worms in the fridge & one of those always perks him up LOL!

Anyway, can't wait to see how Telonic does with the Allpurinol! Let us know when you get it!

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Oh my, the poor thing! I am so sorry they did confirm gout with him. They didn't even want
to try to treat him at all?
You mentioned he was doing better today, how are his colors?
I hope he is feeling better. I did get your meds sent out today & will send the tracking also.
It is most likely genetics, so many are inbred now which does affect their health.
Definitely don't give up on him, yet. They can certainly surprise us all with how well they can
recover in a lot of cases. We will help as much as we can.
Let us know how he is doing.

Tracie

 

[dewittfamily]

Thanks for shipping so quick, Tracie. His coloration is still good, and he ate a few feeders yesterday on his own that I held in front of him, so he at least still has some appetite. I have not noticed the swelling getting any worse either, and he really does seem to be scooting around faster, even if it is still a crawl/drag. His "Daddy" - my 8 year old little boy - commented about it yesterday without me saying anything, so I'm not the only one that made the observation. He is still cooperating with syringe hydration as well. I believe he is VERY well hydrated, as he is pooping once to twice a day, but that part is actually more firm now like it should be - not like diarrhea, and the urate part is bright white. Additionally, he went a couple of times yesterday and it appeared to be just white urate and water (both very liquidy). My thought is that with as much fluid as he is receiving, his urate is occuring more often even if it is without any poop, and it's white and clear because of all the fluids. I know in humans, kidney problems often present as dark colored urine, and the more clear the urine, the better hydrated you are. Would the same be true of beardies? There is no reddish-brown or brown color at all now, which makes me think he is processing everything well and plenty hydrated. Please give me your opinion on if this makes sense, or if maybe I'm reaching a little bit.

I know that the outlook isn't great, but we're not ready to give up on him and certainly not going to put him down if he appears to be doing better in any way. If we can get him stabilized, we are willing to make special accommodations in regards to diet, etc for him as needed for the rest of his life.

He is supposed to go for his 2nd and final treatment of Ponzuril for the coccidia tomorrow. Should he not get that now? I don't want to give him something that will make it harder on his kidneys.

Thanks,
Tim

 

[EllenD]

So the vet refused to even treat him for the Gout? I'm so sorry, how awful. As if it's not hard enough to deal with the situation, then to not have the support of the vet certainly doesn't help...Although, I'd be looking at that as a good thing in the end, because it's quite obvious that this vet was not very well-educated about Gout in Bearded Dragons, and was certainly not aware of how common an issue this is now, especially in young baby dragons. So it's probably a much better situation to just treat him on your own, without an inexperienced vet potentially making him worse.

I definitely would not give him any more medications at all right now, especially not the Toltrazuril, as yes, it will be hard on his kidneys, but also because his Coccidia load/count is most likely high due to the stress on his body and his immune system from the high Uric Acid level and the Gout in general. In healthy Dragons, they generally all have a low count/load of Coccidia at any given time, and their immune systems keep the Coccidia in-check, same thing with Pinworms. But when a dragon becomes ill and their is enormous stress on their bodies overall, their immune systems stop keeping the parasites at-bay. So not only can the Toltrazuril overwhelm his kidneys at this point, but it's very likely that once he starts the Allopurinol and his UA level starts going down, his immune system will naturally again start to control the Coccidia in his GI Tract, and he probably won't need to have the Coccidia treated again any time soon. After the Gout starts to get under control you can then do a repeat fecal test and see where he's at, but for right now you definitely do not want to introduce any other medications that can put him in a downward spiral, as they typically do.

 

[dewittfamily]

Ok, that's what I was thinking too. Another question - does it do any harm or any good to give him Acidophilz as a probiotic right now? Not sure if it would help with his appetite at all, or conversely, if it would be something harder for his system to process. To summarize, this is where I'm at and what he's getting:

- .5 to .8 ml dark cherry extract daily
- Quite a bit of pedialyte and water mix daily by syringe - 10 - 20ml daily. I know he is plenty hydrated!
- .7 to 1 ml Zilla liquid calcium gluconate per day (have organic variety coming from Drache 613 to use instead going forward)
- 1-2 medium to large hornworms a day, also going to try a couple of crickets. Trying to get silkworms too, but no one has any right now, even online that I can find
- Small amounts of bell pepper and mustard greens, but way more than he ever had before. I do have to trick him into opening his mouth for these, but he does eat them


I will be starting the allopurinol from Tracie as soon as it arrives added into his daily routine.

So, can/should I also give him the Acidophilz? And is there anything else I should be giving him? Or anything I am giving him that I should not be?

Thanks,

Tim

 

[dewittfamily]

Sorry - forgot to include the Metacam for pain. He's getting .4ml twice a day.

Thanks,
Tim

 

[EllenD]

You're doing everything very well! Your dragon is very lucky...

Yes, I'm a huge believer in using Probiotics any time a Dragon or Bird is sick or on any types of medications, as it not only can settle their stomachs and encourage their appetites, but it will also replace any normal, healthy flora/bacteria that may be being killed off by some meds; in the case of your dragon the Allopurinol will not kill-off healthy flora, however his immune system is very stressed, and this can allow for the overgrowth of fungi throughout his GI Tract, specifically yeast, and this often leads to a yeast infection throughout the GI Tract secondary to the Gout. So putting him on a Probiotic can keep the yeast at-bay.

The Hornworms are great for him, full of fluid and healthy protein. As far as his live, STAPLE feeder goes right now, yes, if you can find Silkworms that's definitely the way you want to go, as not only are they full of fluids and healthy, low-purine protein, but the inner lining of their intestinal tracts contains Serrapeptase naturally...However, I know they are very difficult to buy live (most people buy their eggs in-bulk cheaply and grow them that way, but you have no time for that)...I'm pretty sure that if you go to Amazon.com you can buy large Silkworms, but not in bulk, and they aren't in the price range where most people would be able to buy a large quantity of the, but if you can buy him 50 or so of them from there and give them to him sporadically it would help.

However, he still needs a proper live, STAPLE feeder insect, and I highly suggest making it BSFL/Phoenix Worms instead of Crickets or Roaches, as BSFL are low in purine-based protein, which is responsible for raising Uric Acid levels. Both roaches and crickets are very high in purine-based protein, some way more than others depending on what food the vendor raised them on, and you have no way of knowing that (a lot of vendors feed them with Dog Food because it's cheap and easy, but this is thought to be one of the main reasons that Gout is becoming so common in Bearded Dragons). The BSFL/Phoenix Worms are high in fluids, high in healthy protein, and high in Calcium and all other vitamins/minerals, and usually the suggested live staple feeder for Dragon with Gout when Silkworms are not available in bulk, as basically BSFL are like Silkworms without the Serrapeptase (but you can also buy Serrapeptase as a dietary supplement in powder/capsule form too). So if you feed him the large BSFL as his daily staple insect (he is growing and needs his daily live insect protein, that's the problem when young dragons get Gout, they can't stop all live insect protein) and supplement with the Hornworms, he'll be well-hydrated, getting lots of calcium, healthy protein, and his natural growth and development will not suffer.

Just as a side note, I've been feeding size large BSFL as my main staple feeder to all my dragons for about 15 years, I supplement a couple of days a week with a Superworm or two, but mainly they get the BSFL and that's it. Neither of my current dragons that I've had since they were about a month old have every had a cricket or a roach since I brought them home...and they are both huge, healthy, and happy. I've had some people worry about feeding their young baby/juvenile dragons only BSFL as their main staple insect for fear that they wouldn't grow to their full size potential like they do if they are fed crickets and/or roaches, but that's just absolutely not true. Not only is my year and 1 month old female about 20" long right now and weighing in at 497 grams after a huge poop (lol, I weigh them weekly, and yesterday I weighed her in at 522 grams, then she had a bath and did a huge poop, and afterward I weighed her again at 497 grams, so there ya go), but she's never been sick a day in her life, and I feel quite confident that Gout is not a problem we'll have to deal with.

FYI, I order my size large BSFL monthly from www.dubiaroaches.com or www.symtonbsf.com (any size dragon can eat size large BSFL since they are soft-bodied, don't bother with smalls or mediums, as they blow through them like water, lol), in bulk cheaply. I usually pay about $23 shipped for 1,000 size large from the first link, and about $34 shipped for the same from the second link, and I've never had a problem with dead worms or delayed shipping.

 

[dewittfamily]

Thanks, Ellen! I just ordered 800 large BSF so I can start feeding both of my little guys. I will also start giving Telonic the acidophilz daily, I just wanted to make sure it couldn't make anything worse. He had better live to be 20 years old, lol....

Tim

 

[dewittfamily]

Hooray! Received meds from Tracie already! Telonic just got his first dose of allopurinol. I have to confess that it smelled so good and fruity that I was tempted to taste it first! Alas, I resisted temptation, and scored 1 for willpower. Suffice to say, he definitely was happy to take it. Kept licking his lips after I gave it to him to make sure he had every drop. It was also packaged with some kidney support powder that I didn't realize came with it, all packaged in a cool little carrying box to help keep it neat in the refrigerator. I'm very appreciative that it came so quick.

BTW, Ellen - I laughed so hard I had tears in my eyes when I read that your girl pooped 5% of her body weight....

Tim

 

[dewittfamily]

Hello, all. Having a down day today. I had to remove his log as I found him on his back - I guess he fell off or rolled off of it and was not able to flip back over on his own. Fortunately I was home, and it had only been 5 min since I had checked on him, so he couldn't have been like that for long. It is only one of those hollowed 1/2 logs you can buy at the petstore - about 3" high at it's peak. Now the poor guy really has nothing in his home. This weekend I am going to make a platform and ramp that goes the full length of his enclosure so he can get up higher or back down without falling off or over.

I ordered a digital scale today so I could weigh him myself and keep track of how he's doing. He seems to be putting on weight, but hard to tell just by holding him. He did eat 2 hornworms this morning without me holding them in front of him. I put them in front of him on the ground and left them, and he actually grabbed them himself. I know, not much difference, but something he has been doing less lately.

Other than that, he does seem to be getting a little weary of me poking syringes in his mouth, but I guess that's to be expected. When I open the door to his enclosure now he is starting to scoot away. I guess he figures I'm going to mess with him. I do keep taking him out just to hold him too though so he doesn't associate every time his door opens with some kind of treatment. That's the down day part. He's starting to prefer that I leave him alone, I think. I know if there is to be progress that it will be very slow. I just hope he peps up a little when I build him his ramp. He seems sad and just scoots to a corner and stays there most of the day right now.

Sigh.

 

[AHBD]

Poor little dude. It might be the Meloxicam....it can cause drowsiness and incoordination. I personally wouldn't use it .

 

[AHBD]

For a soft temporary ramp you can roll up a towel for him to climb on + snuggle with.

 

[dewittfamily]

Thats a great idea - thanks!