My beardie needs your help, please!

[Drache613]

Hello Tim,

OH wow, that is really good news the vet was actually helpful. So she did confirm some
crystals just from aspirating some fluid from the toe to culture, that is surprising. So
many times it just isn't there. The x-ray probably helped, too.
If you need helping with doses, let me know. I can help with that. They should be able
to source allopurinol, it isn't a controlled substance & pretty easy to get. Allopurinol is
the same across the board for both humans & animals.
A blood draw on a 100 gram dragon is questionable, but possible. That is ok she didn't
do a blood draw right now, but maybe later when he gains a bit more weight. It would
be interesting to see his uric acid levels.
The black cherry & more veggie slurries are a good idea, to keep his hydration status up.
You have a great start with heading it off, hopefully.
I am sure he is tired, but at least he did eat a hornworm though!

Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie

 

[EllenD]

It's sounds like you found a knowledgeable reptile vet, and this is probably the #1 reason that most of those beardies you saw that passed away didn't make it, because they had a vet with no experience in reptiles or Bearded Dragons at all, let alone in diagnosing or treating Gout in them, so this is huge! It's truly half the battle, that I promise you.

If he is on a pain medication, even if it's just Metacam, don't expect much activity from him, it's not a decline in his condition, it's just sedation from the pain med, which is both normal and beneficial to him, as Gout is a terribly painful disease and he needs the pain relief and the rest. So don't worry if he's acting lethargic, the fact that he ate a large hornworm on is own is awesome, and they are a great source of fluids/hydration, which is going to be one of the most important things you can do for him throughout this process, keeping him well-hydrated every single day and keeping his kidneys flushed. The fact that the vet found UA crystals in his synovial fluid is an indication that he's got a pretty strong case of Gout, but the fact that this vet knew enough to do that is very, very encouraging...

 

[dewittfamily]

That's good to hear on the pain meds - that's exactly what he's on. As the day went on he seemed to become a little more active and alert, which would make sense with him getting dosed in the morning. Would it be beneficial to give him half in the morning and half later on in the day? I feel like for humans we take pain meds in smaller doses 2-3 times a day. If he gets it all in the morning, wouldn't the relief wear off as the day goes on?

Also, thoughts from anyone on "tricking" him to eat? I was able to get him to eat another hornworm today as well as some greens. I found that if I had the syringe in his mouth and at the same time had some food at his lips, that when I moved the syringe, he pretty happily chomped up the whole worm as well as the greens when I did the same thing. I want to be clear that I did not force the food into his mouth - just that he already had his mouth open and lips moving and just kept going on what was in front of him. Is there any reason I should not be doing that? Makes me feel good that he is taking food, but I don't want to cause stress or do anything that would be bad for him.

 

[KevinsMama]

Oh wow... I am going through a similar situation with my Kevin and we just recently decided it was gout. Looking at the pics of Telonic, they have A LOT of similarities, mind you he also had a really nasty femur fracture. I wasn't able to find the video but will look again because I'm very curious to see his movements.

You really are extremely lucky to have found a good vet. Mine has tried to euthanize Kevin twice out of 3 visits. 1st time was cause his leg was broken and 2nd time was because she thought he had a spinal cord injury based on those rare shaky movements and belly dragging. Never tested for anything else, just sent us home with instructions to basically overdose him on calcium in case it was MBD, giving him 2 days to recover before I was to decide to euthanize. I'm now completely dependent on a few people here because the vet was lacking.

I will say, we've been doing the cherry powder for a week now and he is already showing improvements. He still has swollen areas and doesn't move much or well, but it's getting better on him and his appetite has returned. He was on Metacam as well but kept having flip over episodes so I discontinued that and traded it for serrapeptase.

You are doing a great job and are willing to take experienced posters advice. I'm sure Telonic will have a fighting chance. I don't have any experienced advice to be giving you but I can say just hang in there. The allpurinol and cherry juice will do wonders and hopefully you have more luck with hydration than I do.

Tracie (Drache613) has a lot of experience with gout, so it might be worth PMing her for extra advice on how to limit protein, med & supplement dosage and what to expect.

Good luck, and please update often. I will be closely following, looking for inspiration for my own baby.

*EDIT* I just found the video and that is exactly what Kevin's movements look like, though Telonic has 5x more mobility! That same shakiness! Wow, I'm so glad you posted those. He is a big pretty guy also!

 

[dewittfamily]

Hello to everyone! Telonic is trudging along. The Metacam does have him pretty zoned out in the morning after I give it to him, but around 2-3 pm you can tell it wears off enough for him to become more alert. He is continuing to take oral fluids well from the syringe, so I know he is staying very hydrated. While he does tolerate it, he doesn't love it when I wiggle his mouth open with the tip of the syringe, and protested yesterday by releasing a nice wet load all over my pants and shirt. Poor guy tried to wiggle away but I ignored him as I thought he just didn't want the syringe. My boys had a good laugh!

Vet supposed to call today to set me up with Allopurinol, but I do think the cherry extract may be helping. He still drags to move, but is dragging more quickly for sure. Also able to trick him into a couple of hornworms and some greens each day by wiggling his mouth open with the syringe still. Once mouth is open and I get part of the worm at the front of his mouth, he gobbles it down. No real inclination to grab it on his own if placed right in front of him, but I'll take what I can get.

I don't see the swelling look like it's really going down, but I suppose that should not be expected yet, especially without the Allopurinol. I just keep babying him (like crazy). Yesterday, I could tell he had both nostrils plugged as there was loose skin around them both. As he has in the past, he was quite willing to sit still as I got hold of the edge and cleared both of them for him. He seemed happy to be able to breathe better afterwards.

KevinsMama - Kevin not taking fluids very well?

Thanks to all and will continue to update!

 

[EllenD]

Sounds like he's doing pretty well, and no, none of them much like the syringe, but you gotta do what you gotta do if he won't lick a good amount of the fluids off of his snout just by dripping them for him (my rescue boy wouldn't even open his mouth, let alone lick the drops off, so I had to force fluids in him too, as he had a massive mealworm impaction when I first brought him home). Don't worry, he'll be better for it and forget about it, lol..

Until he's on the Allopurinol for a good couple of weeks, you're probably not going to see leaps and bounds in his recovery, just as a human being going through a Gout flare-up takes weeks on the Allopurinol for the swelling to go down and for them to be able to move around normally. My grandfather had Gout flare-ups in his feet, I remember him going through these for the last 20 years of his life, and it was awful. Both of his feet would swell up to at least double their normal size, and they would turn bright red and the skin would eventually start peeling off of them due to how swollen and stretched they were. He couldn't even stand up for the first week of the flare-up until he had been taking the Allopurinol for that period of time. He was given narcotic opioids for pain control, that's how painful it can be, though I used to tell him that he brought it on himself, as he refused to stop eating cheese and drinking the red wine that he did every day. He used to say it was worth it while he was eating the food and drinking the wine, until he was going through a flare-up, then I'd ask him if it was still worth it, and he'd tell me to go home, lol...

 

[KevinsMama]

So glad to hear he does take the fluids! That's a tremendous help, I'm sure! No, Kevin refuses any fluids. I have to tug his beard down on the side & drip a tiny drop in there to get him licking. He might take a few drops after that but the we start the process all over again. He will get so mad at me and struggle to get away now. That's improved moving to me though rather than torture lol!

I think you mentioned you are still waiting on the Allpurinol? When will that be coming in? I'm sure that will help him tons eventually and he will appreciate it. It's kinda weird that something like cherry juice/powder can help them so much. I can wrap my head around that concept lol!

I'm sorry you got pooped on but I laughed so hard at that! He was just telling you what he thought of you at that moment ??

Ellen, my brother in law was the same way with gout! He was severely overweight and would say he can't eat something because it would cause his gout to flare up. Then guess what, less than an hour later he would be eating that exact thing because he mentioned it and couldn't stop thinking about it. I understand cravings, but to know that you won't be able to move because of satisfying those cravings is the definition of insanity lol! I've seen how rough it can be on people, so it's hard to see these little animals go through it, not understanding what's going on or how to fix it. Then fighting the exact thing that will help them.

 

[EllenD]

LOL, I know, I just don't like cheese that much I guess. Not to have my feet look like his did. It is hard watching these little guys go through this, because it's nothing that they did to cause it, and you can't explain to them why you're doing what you're doing to them. All they know is that you keep coming at them with that damn syringe...

I took in another rescue a week ago yesterday, he's a male that was found in a cemetery in State College, Pa, in a snow storm and in temps in the teens. He's a skinny little boy, but he's generally healthy. He's been outside for a while, or his owners didn't feed him, either way he's very long, about 21" or so, but only weighs 360 grams. He's not emaciated, but he's just a long, think boy with no belly or legs at all. Poor guy had a black beard for the first 2 days I brought him home, and he was covered in what I think was motor oil. That was a struggle to get off of him, along with some kind of thick, sticky, oily stuff on his beard that was a dark bluish-green color. We finally got that off with some Fast-Orange hand cleaner, and he has gone from a dull, dark brown color all over to a light, beautiful gray color, no black beard now except when he starts bobbing at my female from across the room (he has been moved upstairs, lol, I want no babies and nature always seems to find a way), but the poor dude hasn't ever seen a green/veggie before I don't think, and he has to be at least 2 years old. So far I haven't seen any signs of any illnesses or disease, and a little precautionary Panacur and some Alfalfa meal has flushed the black, tarry stuff out of him, now bowel movements are normal. I'm just hoping he isn't suffering from anything like Gout or similar, because again, this isn't his fault, I can't believe people do this to pets that they purposely buy (most likely a Penn State student that couldn't bring him home with him at Winter break, so they dumped him outside in the winter weather of central Pennsylvania, happens all the time)...

 

[KevinsMama]

Oh my gosh... how can people do that? I've seen a lot of posts of rescues picked up from outside in college towns. They want the fun of a temporary pet without thinking of the future at all. I know dogs & cats get dumped a lot, and that's sad, but reptiles depend on people so much. Most pets can adjust and at least survive being dumped. An animal that needs controlled temps tho, has no chance when it's cold. Even here in South Florida, we had a w ierd cold spell a couple weeks ago & our wild iguanas were just dropping out of trees due to going comatose from the cold.

I'm glad you were able to get him straightened out for the most part. And you know what to be looking for. If he did belong to a college student, he probably only got fed pellets or freeze dried bugs. I don't see it, if you aren't gonna make the animals life better than it was in the pet store, just leave it at the pet store. I bet that oil was hard to get off. I can only imagine...

 

[EllenD]

Oh my gosh... how can people do that? I've seen a lot of posts of rescues picked up from outside in college towns. They want the fun of a temporary pet without thinking of the future at all. I know dogs & cats get dumped a lot, and that's sad, but reptiles depend on people so much. Most pets can adjust and at least survive being dumped. An animal that needs controlled temps tho, has no chance when it's cold. Even here in South Florida, we had a w ierd cold spell a couple weeks ago & our wild iguanas were just dropping out of trees due to going comatose from the cold.

I'm glad you were able to get him straightened out for the most part. And you know what to be looking for. If he did belong to a college student, he probably only got fed pellets or freeze dried bugs. I don't see it, if you aren't gonna make the animals life better than it was in the pet store, just leave it at the pet store. I bet that oil was hard to get off. I can only imagine...

Well-said, they just don't care. I was a college student once too, but i just can't imagine being able to release my pet lizard outside into the snow into the middle of winter. The really bad part is that then when they come back next semester they will go to the same Petco and buy another baby, after all, they still have the tank and the lights...uhg. He's doing well, I named him Fender. And yes, motor oil, or whatever it was, is not as easy to get out from underneath the scales on their beard as you'd think. I still don't know what in the world the thick, goopy, sticky bluish-green stuff was, he had it in 2 spots on his beard and one on the side of his head. God knows.

 

[Drache613]

Hello!

How is Telonic doing today? I hope he is feeling well & staying active.
Did he eat anything for you I hope?
I am glad that the cherry powder is able to be used with the bugs, that was a great idea!
At least he doesn't mind it then.
On another note, we lived in south Florida for over 10 years namely in Key West. Iguanas
were everywhere, so when I saw reports of them falling out of trees, etc I was so sad. Were
there a lot that died from exposure? I rescued one that I saw that got hit by an SUV on HWY
1 & they didn't even stop! We pulled over & I ran out into the middle of the highway, picked
him up & we went home. He lasted for a few days, but he had too many internal injuries as
he got hit in the head & died with me holding him. We buried him out in Stock Island area.

Keep us posted on Kevin & your new one!

Tracie

 

[dewittfamily]

Hello, everyone. Really bad news on Telonic. Talked to the vet, who consulted with the specialist yesterday afternoon. He has seen the pics, video, x-ray and has all of the information on everything that has been going on, and he says Telonic is not going to make it. Says that dragons this young should not have gout, especially not this severe, and that the Allopurinol would not reverse what he has, maybe only slow down (not stop) the formation of more uric acid crystals. He was either born with kidney defects or developed them very early in his life (likely while at the pet store). Suggested upping pain meds to twice a day to keep him comfortable while he is still eating/drinking, but once he stops doing that, we should put him down so he doesn't suffer. Wasn't even willing to prescribe the Allopurinol. Right or wrong, it's obvious that he cares, has a ton of experience and wants what's best for Telonic. :? :x

What's worse is that he seemed to be doing even better yesterday before I got the call. Still dragging/crawling vs. walking, but doing so faster and with more motion in his legs than he has in 2 weeks. I am beside myself. Of course, we don't want him to suffer, but want to keep him around as long as he's not suffering - especially when he seems to be doing even better. Yesterday I didn't even need to trick him into eating his worm - put it in front of him and he grabbed it on his own. So what to do? I feel like I would still like to try the meds just in case, as they certainly can't make things worse. Does anyone know where I can get Allopurinol without a prescription? I live in the US, so online may be the way I need to go. I can order from petmeds.com 300mg Allopurinol tablets (listed as for dogs). Would that be the right stuff? And if so - can anyone help with dosages? (Tracie, especially?)

Again, don't want to give up on him as long as he's not getting worse. If he is, we won't let him suffer though. Just want to do the right thing for him and for my little boy who is going to have a broken heart.

Please advise - open to any suggestions. Thank you to everyone for your help and support. Amazing to have so many people I've never met care so much about our plight. You are all really awesome.

Tim

 

[AHBD]

I disagree, they CAN recover, it just takes a while ! There are 2-3 recent success stories with dragons here that could barely walk. It took them a couple weeks to see a lot of progress. Be patient, he may recover.

 

[dewittfamily]

I am trying to be realistic, but that's what I'm hoping and surely want to try everything I can short of making him suffer.

 

[AHBD]

Especially since he's actually doing better, a good sign and definitely worth trying to help him. Tracie [ she's usually on later in the day ] may know more about getting Allopurinol [ not sure ] or maybe you could get another vet. Don't give up !