monitor husbandry for bearded dragon

[morphmom]

You risk this topic being locked. I highly suggest briefing yourself on what is and is not permitted:

by beardie » Fri Apr 06, 2007 10:31 pm

Since we've had a number of video posted recently that can be rather upsetting to many, not to mention potentially disturbing to kids, I've decided to define this policy regarding videos that hold too much "shock" value.

Any videos posted should not show lizards, pinkies, or any other non-insect creature being fed to a bearded dragon.

While I understand that some people do practice feeding pinkies and even smaller lizards to their dragon, these videos are upsetting to many and really do not foster a pleasant environment here, since those discussion threads will turn ugly. The focus of this policy is to maintain a generally pleasant and "family friendly" environment.

Furthermore, videos of any nature (bearded dragons or otherwise) that appear to appeal to the "shock factor", will be considered for immediate removal. NO video posted should contain foul language or anything else not considered "family friendly" (ie. PG13/kid safe).

Violation of this policy from this point forward will result in a single warning where the offender will be informed (or possibly re-informed) of this policy. A repeat violation of this policy will result in being banned.

 

[stangbanger]

no need to get so upset and edit your post with more details.

i heard you the first time, and the videos are removed.

i posted 2 videos of pinkys on the first page, and nobody said anything, even the moderator who was posting on that page - so i didnt know


relax.

 

[morphmom]

There are no hard feelings, I was trying to make finding the information easier.

 

[stangbanger]

There are no hard feelings, I was trying to make finding the information easier.

ok, sorry, misunderstood the edit.

 

[stangbanger]

Roxy came out of her hide today

Caught a pic of her right before bed... She was out around noon though

 

[stangbanger]

Oh, and Tippy was very fired up at feeding time today... Soon as he saw the tongs he ran full speed to the glass ready to eat... He's never responded like that before, used to not even move, I had to offer the food to him within a few inches of his mouth

 

[ClydesGirl]

Are you at all worried about the high fat content of pinkies? I know you explained that you're not as worried about potential impaction because you your hydration and temps, but I was under the impression that overfeeding on mice could cause fatty liver disease? I'd read that pinkies should only be fed a couple of times a year at most or only after a female has laid her eggs and needs the extra fat. You're talking about feeding them every couple of weeks and I'd worry that would just be too much and might lead to liver failure?

 

[stangbanger]

Are you at all worried about the high fat content of pinkies? I know you explained that you're not as worried about potential impaction because you your hydration and temps, but I was under the impression that overfeeding on mice could cause fatty liver disease? I'd read that pinkies should only be fed a couple of times a year at most or only after a female has laid her eggs and needs the extra fat. You're talking about feeding them every couple of weeks and I'd worry that would just be too much and might lead to liver failure?

if i was keeping them at "normal" temps, i would be worried about it. the extra heat will help metabolize the rodents better and it shouldnt be an issue.

this is a topic of high debate, not only in the bearded dragon community, but in the monitor community as well.

there are several experts who claim that savannah monitors should never be fed rodents for the same purpose, but a lot of these claims are made on hear-say.

i have seen more solid evidence that the rodents are healthy, than i have for them being bad or causing fatty liver disease.

i also will be feeding fuzzys and hoppers, instead of pinkies...the older the mice are, the less fat content...however, fuzzies are still pretty fatty. the extra calcium and nutrients from the rodents will be a beneficial addition to my beardies diets (or so i would assume).

i guess we will see, but like i said, ive seen more actual results that show it being a healthy addition, than i have negative......a lot of people who provide sub-par housing conditions will always find a way to blame their animals poor health on something....i believe this to be the case for the monitor community especially. people keep savs in crappy fish tanks and sub-par conditions, then when they dont process their food and turn obese, the keepers blame the mice....heres a picture of a healthy sav that eats mice very often, and he is thriving (as is his cage mate)...he is 6 months old, primary diet is crickets, roaches, and mice

also - some leopard geckos that eat mice on the regular (they eat adults, cut into pieces)

*edited for censorship

interesting note - those leos are also kept in monitor conditions (except the basking spot is around 105-110...still much higher than suggested for them)

hopefully those pictures are ok - i didnt post for "shock value" but if a mod has a problem with them, please tell me and ill remove.....just posting for their educational value



this style of keeping, i believe, is a very good way to keep many different kinds of reptiles. provide heat, moisture, and food and they will thrive.....a strong gradient allows them to be as hot or cool as they want....theres no set temp of "85-105"...if they want to be at 120 they can be, if they want to be at 75, they can be....if i provided a spot of 130* and they never touched it, no big deal...at least they have the option

a guy i know provided me with a picture of some beardies basking in a spot with surface temp of 160* ....they had many options, and thats the spot they choose to lay....no burns on their skin (regardless of what people on here say about that temp causing burns...i was told 125-130 would burn my beardies, but they lay on it for hours without a problem)....if i can dig up that pic, i will



just some food for thought...i dont know if feeding mice is "right", but after my own research and talking to people with first-hand experience, its the step I have chosen to take

 

[LLLReptile]

I actually love some of the advances being made in captive lizard husbandry that are being utilized in keeping monitors. I apply a lot of the concepts of whole prey items etc for my blue tongue skinks and Frilleds with great success - I feed rodents at least once a week to both, and they love it. My fire skinks are also thriving with the addition of pinkies to their diet. Some of the largest, healthiest Chinese Water Dragons I've ever seen were offered fuzzy to hopper sized mice at least once a week.

I think the biggest breakthrough that monitor keepers seemed to have was the concept of providing our lizards (or just all of our reptiles, period) OPTIONS within the cage to select exactly what conditions they want to seek out. When given choices, it is remarkable what our creatures will seek out on their own.

Personally, I prefer not to heavily offer lots of pinkies and fuzzies, instead trying to go towards older rodents that are less fatty whenever possible. My frilleds will only eat live rodents, but the blue tongues are readily accepting prekilled and frozen/thawed hopper to adult sized mice, which makes it easy to use those as a food item option. I have encountered several customers who offer their beardies hopper to adult sized mice as well, so if you have a large adult bearded dragon it is *possible* to offer them a larger mouse. From experience with keeping monitors as well as getting my skinks started on mice, I would recommend trying to teach them to eat live off tongs, then prekilled, then frozen thawed before trying to move up too significantly in prey item size. The process of your animal killing and eating a live adult mouse is gruesome, to say the least, and I for one did not enjoy dealing with it when I had monitors who would not accept frozen thawed.

The other issue with rodents that many monitor keepers bring up is that they do not need to be fed NEARLY as much when they are eating a rodent heavy diet as they do when they are eating an insect heavy diet. When I kept dumeril's monitors, they would need one or two small rats (or 3 adult mice) every week - about on par with how much a ball python or similar sized snake would eat. My blue tongues get rodents once a week and a veggie/insect/mazuri diet mix once a week, that's it. The best part about offering rodents is that once you start incorporating them in the diet, they really don't need to eat much or much else. They're a complete meaty little package!

I loved this thread and would love to keep seeing updates - how is the female now, has she fully settled in? I couldn't see in the thread or cage, but did you use UVB in your cages? What kind of lights did you use for the basking spots? I know my frilleds are exceptionally sensitive to specific kinds of light, especially regarding the intensity of the UVB, your female beardie may prefer a lower or higher intensity UVB.

Thanks for sharing!

-Jen

 

[stangbanger]

Nice to see an LLL post...I am fond of you guys, i recently purchased a BEAUTIFUL boa from you guys lol


also - i agree with everything you said. i also will be moving up rodent size as my beardies grow. i will try a hopper for my female, but my male isnt quite old enough yet. hes still a young pup lol. i am feeding them in moderation (once every 2 weeks).

i have actually started allowing my beardies to eat as much as they want. i thought this would make them over-eat, but surprisingly they will stop eating after their fill.

they used to gorge themselves when i fed twice a week....they would eat until theres nothing left moving....now they will eat until theyre full and then stop.....i think feeding feeders daily is helping with hydration as well.

i have only offered my beardies live. the feeding of live rodents doesnt bother me at all...i have only tried offering live to my beardies....i may try to convert them over slowly, but for now ill stick to live to get them used to eating mice....both have only had 2-3 ever so far

as for the UVB, i use a reptisun 10.0 tube...its 18" and right over my basking spot....so they can escape it completely when laying in the cool side, to simulate a shaded area they might utilize in the wild.

my female is still out and about, i think shes still settling in, but i am seeing some progress with her. shes eating now, and not hiding all day. i think there may be something else wrong with her though, so next time she has a bowel movement i want to get a fecal done....she has been kind of lazy for awhile now, even before i made these changes....but shes kinda old and has had a rough life...so im not totally sure....going to get her looked at soon

im using reptile 100w basking bulb for my male and a 75w basking bulb for my female (her tank is on top of my males, so the heat rises up and heats hers too)
ive used halogens with less results, but im going to pick up a 50w for each (different style, going to be shaped like the incandescent im using now, rahter than the dimpled floods)....i also plan to seal off my vents soon to trap in more humidity

 

[Jess]

Keeping beardies with monitor husbandry seems like it could work... But leopard geckos with monitor husbandry makes absolutely no sense to me. Leos are crepuscular, so they would be out and about in the evenings, nights, and early morning. Not during the day. So why on earth would you give a crepuscular animal a bright basking spot with a basking temperature that would mimic day time hot spots?! My rescued leo's previous owner used a white basking light that was much too hot for his tank (It seemed to be at least 110*F, it was a 75 watt Zoomed Spotlight in a 15 gal!), and the gecko crawled around with his eyes shut and avoided the basking area to avoid the light. I've never been to Pakistan so I know I don't have first hand experience or anything, but I highly doubt that there are bright "basking" spots of 110*F at night.

Feeding leopard geckos cut up adult mice doesn't make sense either. Sure, pinkies could be a natural food source for them... But in the wild, would they be eating parts of adult mice? Very unlikely. It seems more like feeding them mice just for the heck of feeding them mice to me.

JMO.

 

[stangbanger]

Keeping beardies with monitor husbandry seems like it could work... But leopard geckos with monitor husbandry makes absolutely no sense to me. Leos are crepuscular, so they would be out and about in the evenings, nights, and early morning. Not during the day. So why on earth would you give a crepuscular animal a bright basking spot with a basking temperature that would mimic day time hot spots?! My rescued leo's previous owner used a white basking light that was much too hot for his tank (It seemed to be at least 110*F, it was a 75 watt Zoomed Spotlight in a 15 gal!), and the gecko crawled around with his eyes shut and avoided the basking area to avoid the light. I've never been to Pakistan so I know I don't have first hand experience or anything, but I highly doubt that there are bright "basking" spots of 110*F at night.

Feeding leopard geckos cut up adult mice doesn't make sense either. Sure, pinkies could be a natural food source for them... But in the wild, would they be eating parts of adult mice? Very unlikely. It seems more like feeding them mice just for the heck of feeding them mice to me.

JMO.

the lights arent ran 24/7. theyre ran during the day (much like the natural sunlight) and theyre off at night (also like natural sun light)

and nobody forced those leos to go there. that enclosure has a thermal gradient from 70s all the way to 140ish. the leos are free to use whatever parts of the enclosure they see fit. if they didnt want to be under those lights, they dont have to be. there is hidden basking spots (meaning no light on them at all - via stacks) with basking temps of 80-100*+ that they can use.

as for the mice not being a natural food souce....neither are dubia roaches for beardies

heres a big debate if youre interested in the topic

http://www.herpcenter.com/leopard-geckos/41924-leopard-geckos-can-sure-put-away-mice.html


people get so hung up on "omg those poor leos are being forced to be under those lights" when in reality, they CHOSE to be there, and there were plenty of other options given to them. the keeper provided a range of conditions for his animals to use as they see fit, and his particular leos chose to utilize those spots.

thats what im getting at about keepers wanting to control every aspect.....why not provide a range of condition and let the animal chose? i have a 74* spot in my beardie tanks....neither of them will even touch it....doesnt matter to me, i provided the option, they didnt like it, so they dont use it.....if the leos didnt like those hot spots, they wouldnt go there

if you put a 200w halogen in your tank and raised surface temp to 250* and still provided a cool spot of 90 on the other side, where do you think your beardie would be? he would be in the 90* spot obviously....hes not going to just lay around in the 250* spot suffering if there are more options available

oh, and heres that other pic of a beardie who also had these choices, choosing to bask at a very high temp (without getting burned, mind you) ....this is surface temp, NOT ambient....you can get these kind of surface temps while still maintaining 70-90* ambients..all about bulb type and placement...i dont provide temps this high personally, and i believe the female using it was gravid

(photo property of SHvar on kingsnake.com)

 

[diamc]

Please remove the pictures showing the reptiles eating the mice. We certainly don't want any children to see that and feel it is ok for them to try. I also wanted to mention that you were encouraging members to post their thoughts and even criticism but I've noticed that your responses to what they mention, could be a little friendlier perhaps. As you are trying to portray, there is more than one way to do things so please try to be a little more compassionate when members post on your thread with their opinions & concerns. Just a reminder, they are legitimate worries.

 

[BeardieMommy3991]

Roxy came out of her hide today

Caught a pic of her right before bed... She was out around noon though

She has quite the pretty red beard! Glad she is warming up to her new "pad". I hope she doesn't have parasites (I think i remember you mentioning she might??) If she does, I hope she recovers soon.

My friend has a rescue Leo, and he seems pretty happy with crix. It'd be kind of weird to see a leo pouncing on a mouse. *imagines* Like.... I'm sure under the conditions, we could digest a tiger, but it doesn't mean we would hunt and eat one. (and then us eating "tiger steak" or a "tiger burger" would be like them eating the cut up mousies.

I'm pretty sure they naturally stick to buggies, given the choice. :3

And with the temps, I think 160 is a bit crazy!! I mean, sure they could stand it, but it certainly isn't natural. I don't know where in nature it gets that hot O.O I think 120's is pretty high- desert temps. Just pondering.

Anyway, glad it's working out for you.

 

[Jess]

the lights arent ran 24/7. theyre ran during the day (much like the natural sunlight) and theyre off at night (also like natural sun light)

and nobody forced those leos to go there. that enclosure has a thermal gradient from 70s all the way to 140ish. the leos are free to use whatever parts of the enclosure they see fit. if they didnt want to be under those lights, they dont have to be. there is hidden basking spots (meaning no light on them at all - via stacks) with basking temps of 80-100*+ that they can use.

as for the mice not being a natural food souce....neither are dubia roaches for beardies

heres a big debate if youre interested in the topic

http://www.herpcenter.com/leopard-geckos/41924-leopard-geckos-can-sure-put-away-mice.html


people get so hung up on "omg those poor leos are being forced to be under those lights" when in reality, they CHOSE to be there, and there were plenty of other options given to them. the keeper provided a range of conditions for his animals to use as they see fit, and his particular leos chose to utilize those spots.

thats what im getting at about keepers wanting to control every aspect.....why not provide a range of condition and let the animal chose? i have a 74* spot in my beardie tanks....neither of them will even touch it....doesnt matter to me, i provided the option, they didnt like it, so they dont use it.....if the leos didnt like those hot spots, they wouldnt go there

if you put a 200w halogen in your tank and raised surface temp to 250* and still provided a cool spot of 90 on the other side, where do you think your beardie would be? he would be in the 90* spot obviously....hes not going to just lay around in the 250* spot suffering if there are more options available

oh, and heres that other pic of a beardie who also had these choices, choosing to bask at a very high temp (without getting burned, mind you) ....this is surface temp, NOT ambient....you can get these kind of surface temps while still maintaining 70-90* ambients..all about bulb type and placement...i dont provide temps this high personally, and i believe the female using it was gravid

(photo property of SHvar on kingsnake.com)

Wouldn't using a CHE or a UTH to achieve those temperatures make more sense though? And what about night time heat, if the lights are just on during the day? The bright white light is just what I'm not getting.

I'm fully aware that dubias, crickets, ect aren't natural for them either, but I think they would be more likely to eat insects in the wild than chopped up mice.