monitor husbandry for bearded dragon

[stangbanger]

hello everyone....just looking for some more opinions ....ive been talking to a guy who had good luck with keeping beardies like monitors and was wondering what everybodys thought would be

this would include:

deep diggable substrate (eco-earth/play sand mix)
multiple basking spots (100, 120, 130-150)
multiple hides (retes stacks)
broad humidity gradient


has anyone ever tried this?

im having hydration problems with my beardies, and theyre overall not as healthy and active as they were in my old house with higher humidity....he is suggesting that theyre under metabloized from not having enough heat, and theyre dried out from not having enough humidity and hydration

my current husbandry is typical caresheet husbandry..measured digitally etc, 105 basking, 90s hot 78 cool, shelf liner substrate, 10.0 uvb etc etc

 

[stangbanger]

in case anyone was wondering on a follow up post.....ive been working on this setup for my beardies, and so far my male is doing much better....just changed female over last night so shes still adjusting

i have 4-6" of bioactive soil/sand
basking spots of 120, 110, 105, 100....warm side temps in the 90s, cool side in the mid 80s


i am using retes stacks for them, and i buried their hides to provide a more humid and cool environment if they choose, but they can also hide at other temps

my males cage is pretty much done....my female is a work in progress, i need some new branches for her and figure out how shes adjusting to the change....she has been a burrowing machine today

my male is 10x as active, uses his whole enclosure instead of just warm side, hes pooping better, more appetite.....he is doing great, i cannot believe the change

i followed a basic setup for ackies monitors, except the soil is a little shallower since they dont need to dig out big burrows

heres some pics for anyone interested....i know ill probably get crucified on here for going against the caresheets, but if at least a few people gain some knowledge through my personal experience, its worth it.....i wont be arguing or fighting in this thread, its just a quick look at what ive been doing with my animals....agree or disagree, we all have to start somewhere.....no advancements can ever be made if nobody steps outside the box and tries new things

i need to mix the soil better in both....theres a lot of clumps ....i used an organic top soil and washed play sand...about 60/40 sand/soil

on to the pics...if you have questions, feel free to ask me....if you wanna bicker or argue, i wont respond to it....have a nice day!

heres how i used to keep them...sorry no good pics, and the door on my bottom viv had defective plexi that i havent replaced yet....but you get the idea...basic setup, shelf liner, etc

new

male:

female (work in progress...and she hasnt settled in yet either....been in here less than 24hrs) :

 

[stangbanger]

oh...and with a huge temp gradient ranging between 74 to 124 (surface temps - not ambient), i found him basking today for most of the day right around 115*....and he hasnt eaten much, with big meals he basks more....i offered them a 130* basking spot and did find them both using those temps after a large meal (again...surface temp, not ambient...ambients didnt do above mid 90s)

with proper heat, ive introduced pinkies and fuzzies into their diets and they are digesting them great and thriving.....i think pinkies and fuzzies are going to be a once or twice a week treat for them...calcium, hydration, and nutrients

videos of my babies munching up some mice (before i made all the changes, this was just after upping their basking temps)

just pinky mice in these videos....the fuzzy was harder to feed because it took them awhile to realize it was food...so no video

female:
*video removed due to site policy

male:
*video removed due to site policy

 

[LaszlosLens]

... im interested to see folks replies on this. :study:

:study: :study: :study: :study: :study: :study: :study:

 

[stangbanger]

... im interested to see folks replies on this. :study:

:study: :study: :study: :study: :study: :study: :study:

since nobody else is here and you are, what are your thought?

 

[diamc]

You'll let us know how it works out. Personally, I would be worried about bacteria breeding in those substrates. I noticed that you said they are burrowing quite a bit, are you sure they aren't trying to escape the heat? Or, are they basking right under the lights more than hiding?

 

[stangbanger]

most of the burrowing took place in the morning at lights on, and at night at lights out....the female burrowed to sleep, and then by 9am she had the whole place torn up burrowing ....checked her temps and it hadnt even warmed up to 100 on her basking platform yet....she has always liked digging, i used to keep her on play sand back when i first got her and she dug around there too....the male doesnt dig, just the female

as for the bacteria - im not worried about it. the mites that live in the top soil will keep it clean for the most part.

http://www.fcps.edu/islandcreekes/ecology/soil_mite.htm



i have really been liking the idea of a "living" substrate....i have a recently adopted red eyed crocodile skink that i have setup a fully bio-active eco system for him....he has live plants, bio active top soil, earthworms, leaf litter, tree bark, branches, etc .....all of the bark and branches and leafs etc i collected from the forest floor and stuck right in the viv, bugs and everything included, didnt even rinse anything.......its quite an awesome little setup, all inside a sterilite tub (he requires 90% humidity or more, so the tub was the best option).....the parasites and bacteria normally found causing harm to reptiles is often contracted by other reptiles...im not too worried about stuff found nautrally in the soil outside

**just caught your edit

my male hasnt used his hides at all since the switch....he spends most of his day basking on his hot branch (about 115* surface temp - measured with IR) or on his cool branch (88*)..... he has a 74* hide available, as well as hides of all temps from 75 to 105, via the stacks....his platform is 125*, and he only uses that directly after a large meal


my female is hiding in those stacks i think partly since shes stressed from the new environment (like i said...this is her first day) ...plus, shes always been more of a hider....i keep her setup about 10* cooler than my males because she seems to favor the lower temps as compared to him (i still provide 115 on her platform though)....it may be due to age, or jsut preference


she will be 6 next month, and he is 1yr old

 

[diamc]

Don't mean to sound ignorant but will the mites bother your beardies at all? Is it ok if your beardies eat them?

Do you have to mist the soil/sand quite frequently? What is the humidity like?

 

[stangbanger]

Don't mean to sound ignorant but will the mites bother your beardies at all? Is it ok if your beardies eat them?

Do you have to mist the soil/sand quite frequently? What is the humidity like?

no worries - i am new at all this too, and learning from someone with extensive experience keeping ackies ....im taking a lot of new advise from him

the soil mites are microscopic and wont harm anything on my herps, they wont bother them at all....in my croc skink enclosure, there may be a few ants and potato bugs...plus the earthworms....but everything is either a cleaner or food

the soil mites, much like wood mites, are reptile safe


i do not mist the sand or soil frequently....the idea behind the depth is to keep it moist down below and dry up top....this gives them a gradient to choose from..my humidity at depth is around 60-70 %, and up top its about 22....this gives them a wide range they can choose from.....in the wild, they actually thrive in the wet season...contrary to popular belief, they dont need low humidity to prevent RI, as long as they are kept properly heated, the humidity wont cause problems (assuming you give them the option to dry out...you wouldnt wanna shove them in a tub like my skink obviously lol)

my health problems started when i moved from a room with 70% ambient humidity to a room with 40% ambient.....after that, my beardies health went bad, which is what prompted me to start making changes

i am adding about a half gallon of water, spread out throughout the enclosure as needed and tilling it all around by hand once a week to keep the soil mixed up and fresh....the soil dries from the top, so adding the water lets it soak down into the substrate, but dries out up top pretty quickly....idont do it often, so far ive dumped 44oz in (less than half gal) once in a week...just enough to keep it moist at the bottom but still dry and "arid" at the top

 

[stangbanger]

also, half gallon sounds like a lot...but ive got 200lbs of substrate in each enclosure....notice the big 1x6 i am using for a litter dam...so its really not much

also - their greens are on a platform to prevent soil from getting in them, and live feeders are tong fed ....the little bit of substrate they might ingest by "exploring" is easily passed as long as they remain hydrated


the only thing i hate is accidentally dropping a dubia roach off the tongs.....they really burrow down in there, and im way too paranoid about them crawling out of my vents to leave them....so i then have to go digging for them....going to get stronger tongs or start using needle nose pliers lol

 

[BeardieMommy3991]

Not really for me- I like a very clean, relatively nonexpensive pet environment, so I use tile. Sand would just get everywhere and costs so much to replace! But for hardcore reptile owners with the funds and supplies, this is a neat experiment. I worry that the stacking hides are a tad small, but the female got in there, so I don't know.

Do you still give them baths? How would you keep the sand out of their eyes?

and ewwie! I could never feed mice... even dead ones Xp *shivver*

Keep us updated... FOR SCIENCE!

(While this may not be the setup for a beginner, or someone lower on funds/time, this looks like it is working pretty well!)

 

[stangbanger]

Not really for me- I like a very clean, relatively nonexpensive pet environment, so I use tile. Sand would just get everywhere and costs so much to replace! But for hardcore reptile owners with the funds and supplies, this is a neat experiment. I worry that the stacking hides are a tad small, but the female got in there, so I don't know.

Do you still give them baths? How would you keep the sand out of their eyes?

and ewwie! I could never feed mice... even dead ones Xp *shivver*

Keep us updated... FOR SCIENCE!

(While this may not be the setup for a beginner, or someone lower on funds/time, this looks like it is working pretty well!)

actually...the substrate wont need replaced, hardly ever....i might do it once per year, but most likely, once every 2 years....thats the perk of having it bioactive...if i had used eco earth instead of topsoil, i would have to change it every few months....but the mites should clean it up for me for the most part.....gonna add some more dirt from outside in the woods to get a few extra cleaner bugs in there

and yea, the dirt/sand was making a huge mess....thats why i put the 1x6 board in there to extend my litter dam lol


the goal here is to not have to bathe them due to the increaed humidity gradient.....my male is having healthier and more regular bowel movements on this setup with no baths than he did on the old setup with baths....ill keep an eye on it though

the mice are a good addition, but only if you provide temps like this....i think they would pose more of a problem with lower basking temps....after eating mice, they will lay in the 125* spot to help digest it...my female even ate some with fur on them lol.....they arent a main food source, but they are a good supplement to add into the diet....primary food is dubia and supers

so far, no problems with the substrate in their eyes/nose/ears....i was originally concerned about this myself, but was reassured it wont be a problem, and so far hasnt been.....even my skink who burrows down into his dirt, has been ok


and its cool to get some actual interest ...i figured for sure i would attacked over it, but im so excited about this project i wanted to share it anyways....when i first mentioned basking temps this high, people got upset at me saying im cooking them, even though my ambient temps are still ok....really, im using the same watts i was using with the old setup, i just moved my basking spot closer to the bulb....so only the basking temps changed, not ambient...although, overall ambient is a little higher (but in a good way....they actually use the cool side now)


oh, and lastly, the hides being tight is the point.....reptiles feel more secure in tight spaces...when i had the old setup with staggered blocks, my female would go in there and put her body in the 4" area, but cram her head and face into the 2" area....so far shes doing good using the hides, she can turn around inside of there because i often see her facing different directions when i check on her.....she isnt taking the change well, shes been in that same spot for 2 days...but im letting her adjust and do her thing....shes still laying on the warm side, and her temps are a little lower than my males, so i know its not that shes hiding from the heat, since she left her cool log in favor of the stack...i think shes just been through so many changes lately that shes stressed out and hiding....i expect her to come out in a few days....ive heard of monitors not leaving their hides for 2 weeks after a major change like this, so im not going to worry about it, and let her do her natural thing

a cool saying i saw on another forum applies well here, ""Behavior is WHAT AN ANIMAL DOES, the body is what it does it with. An animal in a shoe or sweaterbox, has no behavior, there is no need for behavior. You the keeper has taken that away."
Frank Retes

so im going to just sit back and let her decide what to do....ive tried to start learning from my individual animals, instead of following the norms that work for "most" animals

 

[morphmom]

Hmmm... I don't get it. :? I love the idea of temp gradients via 'digging' to the right depth but I'd still be super fearful of Parasite. Not saying it would be from your set-up but rather a feeder option. I just don't know how you could disinfect. I'd also worry about the substrate creating issues with the eyes and vent area. Hmmm... I wish you luck, but I'm honestly not sure on this one :dontknow: I will respectfully state that this option is just not for me or my Myah.

 

[stangbanger]

Hmmm... I don't get it. :? I love the idea of temp gradients via 'digging' to the right depth but I'd still be super fearful of Parasite. Not saying it would be from your set-up but rather a feeder option. I just don't know how you could disinfect. I'd also worry about the substrate creating issues with the eyes and vent area. Hmmm... I wish you luck, but I'm honestly not sure on this one :dontknow: I will respectfully state that this option is just not for me or my Myah.

it will disinfect naturally....thats the beauty of using a living substrate.

there arent any reptile parasites living in dirt...im not worried about parasites in the slightest...parasites require a host, i would be more afraid of picking them up at a reptile show and brining them home, than i would be of finding them in my substrate.
as for the eyes, it hasnt been a problem so far, and if theyre properly hydrated, it shouldnt ever be a problem...if they did get something in their eye, their eye would water and flush it out....not sure what you mean about the vent, but so far so good there too

appreciate the positive thoughts i will keep this updated with future progress as its made.....i know this isnt for everybody, but i feel like its made a big difference for me....im not here to say your guys setups are incorrect, just offering up a potentially new way to keep these animals ....all progress starts somewhere....they arent "guinea pigs", i love these two herps (the male is my favorite pet ive ever owned)....just trying to provide them with a happy healthy life

 

[morphmom]

there arent any reptile parasites living in dirt

I believe you. :wink: I was more thinking of a food item. Such as store insects and so on. BD's can (not all do) get sand/other loose substrate 'caked' in thier vents creating a blockage. I also believe that you love your BD's very much to go through all this. I'm just dealing with Coccidia right now and know how hard it is to contain/eliminate. I do still wish you luck. This should be an interesting topic :wink: