**Mega Ray Issues** / Megaray RECALL

[lilacdragon]

Hi, Puffpuff11.

Maybe Puff was a bit uncertain about being 100% exposed to "predators" when out in the middle of the yard. My girls are quite nervous when they see the wide open sky and like to be close to shelter when they are outdoors. Like Puff, they look for somewhere to hide (?from hawks?) and often head for the bushes. If they see a silver aeroplane high in the sky they crouch and run for cover, too.

Hi, Germain.
I meant to comment on your definition of "crap shoot" in my last reply but I forgot.
LOL!!! You were guessing right - I had no idea "craps" was a gambling game. :shock: What you said makes perfect sense to me now! Yes, at the moment choosing a mercury vapour lamp is indeed a bit of a gamble. Hopefully not as bad as Russian Roulette though!
I thought the expression must mean something similar to the one about crap hitting the fan...

Good news though.
I've had replies from both T-Rex and ReptileUV, and samples are on their way!

Frances

 

[beardie parents]

I'm glad to hear about that, Francis. It's hard to understand some of America's way of talking, but then you have certain things that mean one thing to you and something entirely different to us.

 

[Germ]

Hi, Germain.
I meant to comment on your definition of "crap shoot" in my last reply but I forgot.
LOL!!! You were guessing right - I had no idea "craps" was a gambling game. :shock: What you said makes perfect sense to me now! Yes, at the moment choosing a mercury vapour lamp is indeed a bit of a gamble. Hopefully not as bad as Russian Roulette though!
I thought the expression must mean something similar to the one about crap hitting the fan...

Frances

:lol: Yes, that was the drift I was getting from your posts, glad we have it straightened out now ...

btw - You handled it much better than I think I would have, with all the effort you put into this, thinking it meant the other ... :wink:

Have a Good One,
Germain

 

[Drache613]

Hello Frances,

Thanks for all of the analysis of the UVB explanation.
I have to agree, the lower UVB:UVI ratio readings really seem to make a difference even when non terrestrial light waves seem to not be present. That is why our dragons would not sit under the T-rex UV MVB, not the Active Heat. That was last year though.
Do you know how long the Reptiglo 10 bulbs have been out? I have talked with a few people claiming that they have been using the Reptiglo 10 tube bulbs for years, & that isn't really possible, as they have not been out all that long. The Reptiglo 8 tube bulbs are most likely what people are referring to & they were good bulbs which explains why no one has ever had any issues with them.
I am anxious for you to receive your T-rex samples along with your Reptile UV samples, too. I have readings on a T-rex Active UV heat bulb, as well as the Solar Raptors too. A friend of mine in Canada has several, but is not using them now.
I will refrain from giving my readings until you have done your analysis.


Thanks!
Talk to you soon.
Tracie

 

[Germ]

Do you know how long the Reptiglo 10 bulbs have been out? I have talked with a few people claiming that they have been using the Reptiglo 10 tube bulbs for years, & that isn't really possible, as they have not been out all that long. The Reptiglo 8 tube bulbs are most likely what people are referring to & they were good bulbs which explains why no one has ever had any issues with them.

The Repti-Glo 10.0 tubes have been available at least, since early 2007, I have been purchasing/using them since then & I do know the difference between an 8 & a 10. To me that constitutes 'years' & 4 for sure, that they have been out. To my knowledge, the 8.0s have not been manufactured for 2-3 years, maybe more, as they were replaced by the 10.0s. Yes, it is, not only possible, in my case, a fact. If you check past posts, the Repti-Glo 10.0 has been referenced to, as far back as Jan 2007. What explains why there have been so few reported issues with them, is very simply that, they are not a bad bulb, maybe not very best, but do the job well, setup properly, as any bulb should be. As Frances mentioned, there is an awful lot of them out there, with few reported issues.

Germain

Edits: afterthoughts

 

[PuffPuff11]

Frances, Puff often sits in the middle of the yard, but he is always watching the sky, especially when he hears birds so this could be possible. We took him with us when my husband was flying his remote controlled airplane, and I realized he thought it was a predator when he kept croutching when it went over him.
And like everyone else I am also waiting patiently for your results with the Megaray and T-Rex. Reptile UV said they would have bulbs in a few weeks to send out... but I am still cautious and worried about using it.
Since I have your attention I just wanted to verify something about calcium supplements, when you are using a MVB or natural sunlight you should be using calcium without D3?
With all other UV bulbs, even though they produce UVB, you use calcium with D3?
I did alot of reading when I first got Puff but it's been awhile and I just want to make sure I have the correct information and I am doing the right thing.
Thanks for all your hard work!

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Well, in my opinion, since 2007, roughly, does not constitute "years of use or availability" to me. The Reptiglo 8 tube bulbs were around a lot longer than that.
I simply asked Frances about the Reptiglo 10 because she is out of the US & products are often used in the UK or European areas before the US a lot of times.
I understand about the shortwave & the longwaves of the UVB & the differences, etc. I talk with Frances often regarding the results of bulbs and everything. I have personally worked with quite a few people that have used the Reptiglo 10 tube bulbs only to have their dragon suffer from metabolic bone disease. They have done some sneaky things, when they phased out the Reptiglo 8 with the Reptiglo 10 such as packaging the 10's in boxes that said 8's, etc. The 10 bulbs are inferior to the 8 bulbs.
While metabolic bone disease do not happen to every dragon, it will happen to some unfortunately. Why not simply avoid metabolic bone disease altogether. It will happen to babies more often than adults because babies have not laid down their calcium & 25 Hydroxy levels yet thus they are still growing & utilizing it all for bone structure & other physiological functions.
We all know that they are not able to properly absorb or uptake calcium if they do not have adequate exposure to UVB levels on a relatively steady basis throughout the year, with the exception of low metabolic periods such as brumation.
Adults have already for the most part laid down their calcium & 25 Hydroxy stores making them a little more durable to avoid hypocalcemia. While you may not "see" that they are having any calcium issues, you can't see inside of them unless a blood test is done. I can just about guarantee that over time, if a reptile in general, such as a bearded dragon is kept under a UVB source with low output, that their 25 Hydroxy levels will gradually fall over time, leaving their bones leached. Then, one day, they will simply start having some problems.
They may have appeared to have been doing well, & maybe they were, as they are hardy little creatures. However, their bones can only store calcium levels at a certain level for so long when they are exposed to under 50uW/cm2. Dragons in the wild have been known to have 25 Hydroxy levels well into the lower 100's which is phenomenal.
I think low UVB exposure is also playing a role in so many of the problems with hatch rates & other problems in the dragons lately. So, it is always personal preference when using a light, as Frances states. However, my preference is not to use the Reptiglo 10 products, either.

Good luck!

Tracie

 

[lilacdragon]

Guys, please don't start an argument over this. It's not worth it.

ExoTerra ReptiGlo 10.0s came out over here in April 2007.
That is certainly quite a long time ago in terms of new products.... ExoTerra took the hobbyist world by storm because their products were so cheap, and now they are by far the biggest sellers in most reptile stores over here, purely because of their low price and high-powered marketing strategies.

By a strange quirk of fate, much though I dislike admitting it.... a reptile that has no eye or skin problems, which has an ExoTerra ReptiGlo 10.0 tube is actually very slightly LESS likely to get metabolic bone disorder than one basking under a tube with a more sun-like spectrum.
This is because the shorter wavelengths, which are more damaging to eyes and skin, are also more potent at producing vitamin D3.
This is not a recommendation for increasing the proportion of shorter wavelengths from a lamp. I am very wary of wavelengths not found in natural sunlight, as I've already explained at length. It's just one of those "balancing risks and benefits" things.... The human equivalent would be, I suppose, "Do I risk skin damage from sunburn, in my desire to make more vitamin D3?" Reptiles don't get sunburn, of course, but the analogy holds, I think.

As for Puffpuff11's question about using calcium with vitamin D3, if you're using mercury vapour lamps and/or sunlight...
No-one can give you a definite answer on this, I'm afraid, because no-one knows.

In one set of experiments with veiled chameleons, a group receiving both UVB (from a 6% UVB compact lamp) and vit D3 supplements plus calcium did best of all, and had high serum and liver 25(OH)D3 levels (good vit D3 status).
Ones given just vit D3 supplements-plus-calcium, and ones given just UVB-plus-calcium were okay, but the ones given UVB-plus-calcium had higher 25(OH)D3 levels.
A group given just UVB but no calcium were ok early on, but "ran out of calcium" and developed MBD eventually. Presumably, they had enough vitamin D3, but no calcium for it to work on.
One sad little group that received no UVB, no D3 and no calcium all, unsurprisingly, developed MBD.
http://jn.nutrition.org/content/140/11/1923.abstract

That is the best set of data that I know of, and it shows that UVB really does work, and oral D3 also works, but maybe not as well, for chameleons. Of course, we don't know what the results would be if they had used a higher vitamin D3 oral dose.... or a more powerful UVB lamp... or a tube instead of a compact, with its very steep UVB gradient and low levels except at very close range...
And are beardies similar to chameleons? I somehow doubt it.
Just a lot of unknowns.

So I will hazard a guess, and say that whatever UVB you use, it will almost certainly do no harm whatever, to lightly dust food with vitamin supplements which contain D3 once or twice a week, along with plain calcium (without D3) for dusting crickets the rest of the time. It is actually a lot more difficult to overdose with vitamin D3 than people think, especially as the multi-purpose vitamin - mineral supplements which contain D3 don't contain vast amounts of it.
It is important to use only fresh supplements though - ditch them at once if they are past their sell-by date, or if they've been open to the air or sunlight for any length of time. Vitamin D3 does degrade over time, especially if exposed to light.

All the best
Frances

 

[Germ]

I have said my piece & here it is again, more often than not, setup is the problem, if you don't follow the manufacturer's Min/Max specs & adjust accordingly for UVB strength dissipation over time, it is likely that problems may arise. The 10.0s might possibly be inferior to the 8.0s, but the 8.0s have not been available for some time now. I won't say years, because more than 1, is apparently not 'plural' in your version of the English language. Just because one may be a little better than the other, doesn't make the other a 'Bad Bulb'. And why even bring up a long obsolete bulb?

I have used them, for young & old alike, for 4 years, in 5 enclosures for 5 BDs, with no related problems. The BDs that I keep, at this time, range from 1 to 6 years old & are very healthy. I am now in the process of change over to the Repti-Sun 10.0s simply because I want to try them out & was able to grab 4 X 18" T8s & 1 X 24" T8 online for $24/bulb on Ebay, so was also hard to resist.

I agree & have mentioned before that it is personal preference, and from my limited experience, are as safe as most on the market today, and am not telling\forcing anyone to use them, simply that I have not had issues. All the numbers and scientific talk can be posted, most of us understand very little of it, a little more now with Frances' help. But what does stay with me, is the easy to understand fact, that other than your select few who seem to have more problems, than the herp world has reported to uvguide.co.uk, of the 10s of thousands of these bulbs that are out there, there have been very few problems whether with PKC or MBD.

However there are only a very few reports of photo-kerato-conjunctivitis associated with ExoTerra compact lamps or linear tubes ...and out of the half-dozen or so convincing cases I've collected over five years, (yeah, ok, that's not a lot, but the affected animals did suffer...) most, but not all, occurred when the reptile was able to get very close to the lamp.
I am told that probably because they are so cheap, Exoterra ReptiGlo tubes are the most popular brands on the market, so the incidence of injuries must be very low; the risk cannot be very great.
Personally, though - and everyone is entitled to their own opinion - I choose different brands for my own reptiles.

Hope that helps.

Frances

Sometimes I feel that things are made much harder than they need to be, the more technical we get.

Have a good one,

Germain

EDIT: Sorry Frances, I had written this over an hour ago, but could not submit it because the website would not hook up again at 14:25 PDT, and just came back & hit the submit button, not realizing that you had posted.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

To Germain: I am not sure what I have said or done to you on the boards here, but really, there is no reason to insult me for simply pointing out a few things regarding the Reptiglo since I have helped numerous people that have used this bulb with their dragons who did develop metabolic bone disease while using this light. Perhaps they had a dragon who got off to a bad start, I don't know. I didn't say it was a bad bulb, but just a more inferior bulb when looking at the overall spectrum. I would not say it has only been a select few, it has been quite numerous with the incidents.
It would be interesting however, to see what your dragon's 25 Hydroxy levels were in comparison to later on under a different light. That is the true measurement of bone density & you cannot tell just by looking, what their calcium levels are. I am glad you have not had any issues with the Reptiglo 10, but others have not been so lucky.
My English dictionary is the same as yours, thank you very much. Just because the Reptiglo 10 came out in April 2007, doesn't necessarily mean that all of the 8's were automatically off of the shelves. It took time to sell all of the old stock, just like it took time for the compact/coil lights to be moved off of the shelves after some of the recall with the Reptisun products. It doesn't just happen over night.
I try to educate people on here & help them make good choices regarding various aspects of care.

Thank you Frances for always helping out it is much appreciated.

Tracie

 

[MissT]

I mentioned this before but thought I would mention it again. I got phoebe from a pet store (a relatively decent small beardie store). All bearded were kept under repti-glo 10.0 (I'd say there were 10-15 beardies in the store when I purchased her). None were any closer than 8 inches from the tubes yet Phoebe had developed pkc. I think she's a prime example of what COULD happen and her suffering puts me off using the repti-glo at all. My litle male ws under the reptiglo for a few months when he was tiny and, although he never displayed any symptoms of pkc, I would say his general appearance greatly improved when he got the Arcadia. I guess it is personal opinion but also personal risk. If you know there are risks involved in buying a particular bulb, why buy it?

 

[diamc]

I have to say that Frances remark -

Personally, though - and everyone is entitled to their own opinion - I choose different brands for my own reptiles.

is enough for me to stay with the faithful Repti-Sun 10.0 fluorescent tubes as I totally trust her judgement and personal feelings about these bulbs. Thanks Frances.

 

[FATBOYDADRAGON]

Hello
I ordered 2 sb100 bulbs from Reptiluv back in october 2010 ,
Finally received them Dec 27 2010 (backordered)
The first bulb burned out after 2 weeks .The second burned out after 3 weeks .(brown box)
Both bulbs were in a 250 wt ceramic fixture in my 4x2x2 enclosure.
Contacted reptile uv about the issue & was sent 2 new bulbs .
The solar raptor in the black box.
Been running one now for 2 months without any issues.
The staff at retileuv are top notch in my opinion & i will continue
to use their bulbs .
Mike D.

 

[Mrkngpen]

I had the same experience with almost the same dates. The problem is that the new Solar Raptor bulbs don't seem to be testing very well as far as UV goes. I posted the UV results that I got (second post on page 36) and hopefully others will post some results soon.

 

[PuffPuff11]

Frances, any news on any of the bulbs you are testing?
Reptile UV still seems to not have bulbs in stock and are still not responding to my emails, they said they would send me a new ballast about 2 months ago... still haven't gotten the ballast or a response since.