Juvie not moving well

[texasdragon]

Hope someone can help me help our little one...

She has very obvious difficulty moving around and hardly does at all... maybe travels 6" in a day.
She's not well coordinated either... I kept finding her on her back after apparently falling off her basking log.
I recently raised the floor up closer to the light so she could bask without having to climb the log. I now have heat only on one side and have a shelter on the otherside where she can go if she wants to cool off... although it is difficult for her to navigate.

Symptoms - lame, uncoordinated, swollen joint at one of her front legs, small bump on her spine just above just anterior to her vent.

She can move her legs, but it seems to be difficult for her.

She's (female I think?) small for her age, 7" head to tail @ 5 1/2 months
I've had her for 4 months. the first 2 1/2 months seemed ok, although growth was stunted
The last 1 1/2 months, she seemed to be growing sluggish. She did have an impaction 6 weeks ago caused from following the advice of the pet store clerk and feeding her meal worms. After nurturing her, we finally got her diet and bowels back, but she never really got all of energy / mobility back. She did recover somewhat, but has been going downhill for the last week.
Appetite has typically been good... she was eating about 50 cricks / day with some greens until recently... now about 25/day.

Best I can tell... this sounds somewhat symptomatic of MBD, but with her setup and diet, I don't know how that would occur.

Current financial situation makes the vet option unlikely. Thoughtful advice would be appreciated.

Setup:
20 gal tank (will upgrade as she grows)
ReptiSun 10.0, 4 months old
Temps 83 to 109 with digital probe
Tile Substrate
Diet - 90% crickets w/ some cactus & greens, dust 5 times/week w/ mix of Calcium (no D3) & multivitamin
She poops regularly, usually in her now daily bath

 

[DragonsNDoodles]

Is it a compact or a tube UVB? How far away from her is the UVB light, and is it on top of the screen top or below it? Also, what type of calcium is it that you are giving?

It does sound a lot like MBD. if she is falling onto her back and making no attempt to turn back over, I really don't think there is much you will be able to do for her. The best thing would be to take her to a reptile vet and see what they suggest.

 

[texasdragon]

Thanks for your response.

Its a tube UVB on top pf the screen... currently 6" above basking spot. Before moving the floor up, it was 6-8" above the log where she was basking. Using Jurassi Cal phosphorus free calcium supplement and Rep-Cal Herptivite multivitamin.

Would placing the the UVB on top of the screen filter out the UVB to the point of causing MBD? Or is the calcium supplement I am using inadequate? I want to know if I am doing something wrong so as not to repeat it. It seems apparent I should have had the light below the screen, but is that the cause of her problem?

I will see about getting her to a herpe vet... is there anything I can do for her until then?

 

[BonesMommy1011]

I would mount her UVB inside the tank. It would hurt to try it. I don't know if having it on the screen will filter out so much of the rays to cause mBD but everyone has told me to having NOTHING blocking the UVB. Do you have any pictures of her?

 

[BonesMommy1011]

Also, I would get some liquid calcium for her.

 

[texasdragon]

Shes has gone down hill quite a lot today. At this point, she doesn't move at all from the neck down. I have helped her trap cricks (which she eagerly eats) and help her poop in the bath. I have also moved her from warm to cool parts of the viv... but she's pretty stressed.

I have done quite a bit of reading and she seems to have strong symptoms of MBD. The prognosis appears dim. If I can get an appointment, I will take her to the herp vet tomorrow to confirm. I doubt my ability to properly dose her with liquid calcium; but also, I want to know if I have cared for her improperly. I have 3 kids that have fallen in love with her and if she leaves us, I expect we will eventually have another... I want to make sure I am an able caregiver. Hopefully the vet and/or some of the more experienced beardie owners on this forum can help straighten me out if I have done something wrong.

I really appreciate all the contributions to this forum, as it has been one of the best resources.

 

[lauraj1055]

You DEFINATELY need to get that UVB inside of the tank.. The screen is blocking out the UVB rays. Use 3m command hooks.. I see you ordered liquid calcium too. That will help a lot. I would also get some critical care to syringe feed her until she is feeling better and moving better. You can mix some chicken baby food in with it for protein. Keep us updated. And post a picture of the viv once you get it set up with the UVB inside it.

 

[Mirthy]

It does block out more than you'd think. Plus she had the impaction to deal with at one point. Did she have any paralysis from the impaction? You mentioned that she hasn't gotten her full mobility back? That can be pretty hard to recover from and sometimes, as you probably know, they don't.

Your set up sounds good. For the time being make sure there isn't anything she can fall off of. I'm pretty sure you already thought of that. Raise her up on towels or the like to keep her close to her basking light safely.

Also, there could be something going on with her this entire time. You say her growth is stunted. Is her tail nipped? Does she have a complete tail? I've kept a pretty complete growth chart for my dragon and at 7 1/2" he was barely over two months old. At five and a half he was at 16.25". It's worth mentioning that when he was 7.5, he was only eating about 25 crickets a day, along with his greens. So something was stunting her growth before you ever got her.

I know there isn't too much help there, but it's all the information I have for you. I know others will be along with better knowledge.
Wishing you, your beardie and your family the very best
Carrie

 

[texasdragon]

Yes, i have wondered is she was not carrying some disease when we brought her home. She does have a complete tail, but it is not straight... several little bends in it. I believe this to be symptomatic of MBD.

I have recently read the screen can block out as much as 30% of the UV, depending on the tightness of the mesh. However, I don't think that is the problem here.

I suspect she was not entirely healthy when I brought her home and her situation was further complicated by the impaction, from which she never completely recovered. But I am puzzled at why she has been getting progressively worse over the last week and why she exhibits signs of MBD given the husbandry that seems to me to be appropriate.

I am off to the vet... will post his thoughts when I return.

 

[Mirthy]

Good luck at the vet. Please let us know how it goes!
thinking of you and your dragon
Carrie

 

[texasdragon]

She was barely able to hold her head up or eyes open on the way to the vet, nor was she able to move her legs. The vet said within the first 5 seconds MBD... suspected spine fractures. I now suspect her problems could have been attributed to a virus that caused MBD like symptoms, and that the only way of knowing for sure would be to perform a blood test to check calcium levels... but I trusted the vet (rather blindly) and did not question his immediate diagnosis / prognosis. He stated she would not recover. This was consistent with my expectation and we decided to put her to sleep. I will miss her.

From all I read prior to heading to the vet, and judging from her lack of responsiveness, I had a pretty strong feeling we would not be bringing her home. The main reason I wanted to go was to get some feedback from the professional about husbandry technique, so this scenario would not be repeated on a future beardie. I did not approach the responsibility of caring for her in a half hazard manner & felt like I had provided good care (certainly to the point of not causing death). In hindsight, perhaps I could have recognized the symptoms sooner and could have sought treatment early enough to have made a difference. I attributed the poor health to ongoing complications of the earlier impaction. Hindsight is always clearer. But I also know that it's hard to know what you don't know, so even though I could not afford it, I took her to the vet anyway.

Aside from losing a beloved pet today, I walked away with a $168 vet bill for euthanizing a very small lizard... with no real explanation of what caused her disease. The vet asked me all the husbandry questions, I gave all the right answers, & he sort of shrugged his shoulders and handed me his best care sheet... which provided nothing new for me as I had already read it in a link from this forum. The best I can reason is that some guys are more hardy and others more vulnerable... similar to me and the vet today... I was not the hardy one.

This leads me to a whole other topic... a rather sensitive one. In weighing my options and checking my wallet, I googled beardie euthansia... no serious research, just a curious inquiry. There were some DIY approaches that suggested refrigeration to induce coma / unconsciousness followed by freezing. I have a hard time seeing myself placing a living pet in the fridge, so... off to the vet. While I will somehow pay the vet and feed my kids this week (rice and beans), I know there must be lots of folks that find themselves in a similar, yet less fortunate situation. While I don't want to place a lizard in the fridge, I don't want to see one suffer either. Surely there must be a humane manner of easing the pain of a little beardie without having to starve your kids for a week?

R.I.P. Luna

 

[Mirthy]

I am so sorry for your loss. It doesn't sound like your vet took your loss as seriously as he could have and I'm sorry for that, too.
Bearded dragons, and reptiles in general, are even better than other animals at hiding illness. And like we talked about before, your dragon was too small right off the bat. Something made that happen before you even brought her home. At times like this it is easy to blame yourself and it's probably harder because you are faced with a tough week after a vet bill, but please don't. It may be small comfort but I grew up with a mom who would of done exactly the same thing and she is still my hero. Even though it didn't have a happy ending, you are teaching your family a love and responsibility for their pets and all life that will stay with them forever. (even though this time it is easing the suffering and letting a pet pass with grace)
you and your family are in our thoughts,
Carrie and Sean

 

[CaptainVimes]

You did a wonderful job for her, regardless of the outcome, just joining here to discuss the problem, and trying to remedy the situation, was something considerably more than others would do.

My kids went a week with bread and butter when I had to spend a huge amount on an emergency, they are no worse off, and even though my dearest daughter is exceptionally materialistic, (a trait from her Dad I'm afraid) she understood money and it's values that week. (ok she soon went back to acting as if money grows on trees, and we own the whole orchard, but she did understand the "every action has a reaction" thing.)

Neither child thinks any less of me.

Next time you really MUST internally mount the uv, (you know that anyway) it can and will make a world of a difference.

It might be worth going back to where you bought her from and questioning their husbandry, tell them what a state she was in, and why she went to sleep forever.

I reckon there was something genetic going on though, so avoid getting another from that place, as you may end up going down the same road again. (if you were to buy a sibling for instance)

I wish you all the luck & happiness in the world with your new one, when you get it.

As for your recent loss, I am very sorry, and my thoughts are with you and your brave family.

Love and plentiful hugs




CV.

 

[KristenT]

So sorry to hear about her
My first beardie was kind of like this... I knew she was sick when I got her, and I struggled about a year to get her healthy and keep her there. In the end, I couldn't do anything for her though, and the vet put her down. Considering all, he was kind enough to give her the shot for free though. I had been several times and got calcium shots and what not, and I think with me balling there in front of him, he just felt bad maybe
I wonder now is it possible to turn them over to the humane society or something... relinquish ownership of them, and then they pay to put them down.
I hate that it turned out this way for you though.