Juvenile Bearded dragon Upset and black!

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So I posted some questions yesterday but they really wasn't answered. I just saved a juvenile bearded dragon from a pet store, well because they suck on caring for them. Every since I brought him home he was been black in color from head to to tip of tail. He only goes back to normal coloring when he is sleeping for the night. I do have experience with bearded dragons and my husband is a pet store manager. I am teaching him to care for them the right way while he is at work. His/her habitat is fine. It even ate yesterday evening for the first time since we brought him home. He ate a really good. But still when I turn the light on in the morning he turns black again. I know he is upset and stressed, and this is the reason for the color.... but why. I never had this problem with a bearded dragon before. EVER. I am scared he is going to stress himself to death. If he don't get better by Monday I am thinking about taking him back to the store. I just know he has a better chance with me than them. I need someone who has experience with juveniles. someone who has been through this. Please help me.
 

diamc

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I was just reading your other thread and noticed that you are using a 100 watt basking bulb on a 10 gallon tank. You really shouldn't need that much wattage in such a small tank. I only use a 60 watt household bulb in a 40 gallon breeder. You should only need a 40 to 60 watt at the very most. Since your baby is lighter in color when sleeping when it's cooler and very dark in color when the lights are on, it sounds like he/she is overheating. What type of thermometer are you using? What are the tank temps? Also, I didn't see any mention of UVB light, could you fill us in on the brand & type you're using? How often are you dusting with calcium and vitamins? What did the baby eat today? How often are you bathing him?

What greens are you feeding all of them?

I also noticed that your other beardies are in view of this baby. That is not a good thing and can certainly stress him out. I would cover the area where he can see them right away with paper, piece of cardboard or something similar.

In your other thread, you mentioned that you have 2 males together that are 7 mo old. Two males should never be housed together, there will always be a dominant one and when they reach puberty (if they haven't started to already), the fights will start and one will not survive. You said that you had separated them once but they wouldn't eat when apart. Any type of change can cause some stress, even changing their feeding dish but it is only temporary. After a few days they would have adapted and would be much safer in their own tanks.
 

Lunabug911

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Actually I got a closer look at the two older ones and I am 100% the one is a male and I believe the other is a female, which is what I origionally thought. I put something inbetween them yesterday after I spoke to the other person. The two older ones will not seperate. I have tried this before and they will not eat or anything being housed seperately. I keep a close eye on them and they do not fight at all. But I do know to watch this cuz they can. I have a 100 watt on my 40 breeder and it stays 80 to 85 on the cooler side. . I changed my 10 gallon light back to the 50 watt yesterday also. I am sure he is changing colors at night cuz he is peaceful. No because of the heat. He is just that stressed out. I use what my hubby brought me home for the humidity and temp. Not sure exactly what they are called. It is not the digital one I do know that. He has not ate today. I tried to feed him and he wouldn't eat. So I had to remove them. I will try again later this evening cuz that is the time he ate last night. UVB Zilla 50 desert. So far I have gave them Parsley and collard green and romaine. I have also gave them bannana... the older ones that is. I dust with calcium and vitimans every other feeding. I bath my older one 2 to 3 times a week depend on my schedule. The baby I have bathed because I just brough him home a few days ago. this is its 3rd day here. I am in the process of getting a 55 gallon tank gave to us and I am going to seperate them once I get it again. Oh and I really don't know what it does but I put this moonlight thing on them at night! If you have anymore questions let me know
 

Lunabug911

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I have actually saw them protect each other. If I go to grab one and it runs the other one will come run after me. It never does anything harmful but I think it is telling me to lay off. hehe
 

diamc

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Just curious, how long did you have the 2 older ones separated?

If it is a male and female, they will breed. Puberty usually hits at the age of 6 to 9 months so even though they aren't old enough to breed, they will anyway. Females that young would have a very difficult time producing and laying eggs and may not survive. The male could actually injure himself if he bred to young also. Breeding is very rough and even if the right age, injuries do occur. Not to mention the fact that the female could lay 4 clutches of about 25 eggs each which depletes the female of everything she needs.

Is the thermometer a round gauge or strip type thermometer? The only 2 ways to get accurate readings are with either an infrared temperature or with a digital thermometer with a long wire & probe end.

Babies can get dehydrated very quickly so it would be a good idea to give him a warm bath. You could even hold him in the palm of your hand making sure his vent area is down in the water. A 15 to 20 min bath is very beneficial to them. I started bathing my babies when they were only 4" long and 2 of them are almost 6 yrs old and the other almost 8 yrs. Using a transparent plastic container with a washcloth on the bottom seems to help get them used to baths quicker. The cloth helps them feel more secure because it keeps them from sliding around.

Hopefully your juvi will eat for you tonight. When they are under 1 1/2 yrs old, their feeders should be dusted with calcium that is phosphorus-free 5 days a wk, but only 1 feeding a day and with vitamins the other 2 days a wk. Since you're not using a mercury vapor bulb, the calcium should contain D3.

Unfortunately the Zilla light isn't a good one, there have been multiple health issues associated with it. That may be causing some of the behavior he is experiencing now. The best UVB you can get in the U.S. is the Repti-Sun 10.0 strip fluorescent, not any type of coil or compact UVB. Pet mountain has it for a very reasonable price.

Here's a site that shows the best foods to feed and the staple ones are printed in green ink: http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Nutrition.html

Is the "moonlight" thing a red or black bulb? They really don't need any heat at night unless the room temp drops below 65 degrees, then we recommend a ceramic heat emitter that gives off heat but no light.

I know this is a lot of info, just trying to cover the basics for your beardies so they can grow up to be as healthy & happy as possible. :wink:
 

Lunabug911

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Trust me I know breeding is tough... since I am a mother of 2 kids! :D . I had the two seperated a week then I started to freak out cuz they wouldn't eat. I do know I don't want them to breed until they are about 18 months, at least I read this is a good age for them. Like I said before I am going to seperate them again when I get the other tank which should be real soon! My hubby has to work with the lady again. I will get the other UVB light. My baby is only maybe a little over an inch from head to butt. I was just afraid I would stress him even more if I gave him a bath so I would just spray him 2 times a day( out of cage while in my hand). The moonlight bulb is 40 watt black light. I just got it cuz we have our air on and I was afraid they would get too cold at night. I really don't know they have so many things they have for them and I just get it hoping it is a good thing. I figured if it is made for them then they should have one! The temp thing is a gauge not a strip. But my hubby put it in the middle of the tank when i wasn't home and now they are pretty stuck. I am going to have him build me a big enclosier eventually cuz he is good at the type of stuff. Oh and I don't have a pet mountain here. We have a Petco, Pet Smart, and Pet suppies Plus, beleive to be the name. I will ask my hubby about it tonight to see if his store has one. So you think it is okay to give the little guy a bath. i am just so scared that he is going to stress his self to death. Ya it is a lot of info.... I just got into the bearded dragons! I used to hate all reptiles. But know I love these guys.
 

Lunabug911

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Oh yea.... I am 100% the one is a male, but I need your opinion for the female. The male has a demple and two bumps. Plus pores on his legs. The female, or so I thought and now think again... has what looks like one bulge. I see no demple at all. But she seems to be showing pores also.... So that is what confused me whether or not she is a girl or boy! I would take pictures of the olders ones but I am not sure how to upload them on here. They are very healthy. The first one I got I got at Petco..... they had it in a cage with 16 of them... so my hubby brought him home for me... good thing cuz all the others died. The second one I got I saw at Petsmart and he stood out to me. Looked healthy and something about his eyes made me buy him. The little guy I bought cuz I thought the two older ones was boys, plus I felt bad that is was so little. It was scary little.
 

Lunabug911

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Thanks for the food chart. I haven't ever seen something so discriptive before. That helps a lot and answers all my questions on the food part.
 

Lunabug911

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One more question on the feeding part. I see that people feed their beardies baby food.... is this a bad? I have heard conflicting stories on this!
 

diamc

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I agree, having kids isn't easy, but can you imagine laying possibly 100 eggs! :shock: The age of 18 mos is ok for a male but for a female, she should be at least 2 yrs old. Beardies continue to grow until they are about 1 1/2 yrs old.

They can go through relocation stress for up to 2 wks so it sounds like what they were experiencing when you separated them. Great that you are getting a tank given to you. 8)

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough about Petmountain, they have a website to order from and are a great company to deal with. Here's the link for the Repti-Sun. http://www.petmountain.com/product/reptile-fluorescent-bulbs/504983/zoo-med-reptisun-10.0-uvb-bulb.html If you put "THANKS" in for the discount code, you can get $5.00 off a $35.00 order and they have reduced shipping right now at only $6.99. Their price for this bulb is at least 1/2 of what you would pay in a pet store.

I do think it would be a good idea to start giving him baths especially since his tank was probably too warm from the 100 watt bulb. Babies that are first born get baths, best to get them used to them when very young. What is the total length of your baby from nose to tip of tail? He sounds like a baby rather than a juvi.

I'm making dinner now, will post more later. :wink:
 

Lunabug911

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He is maybe a bit bigger than and inch from head to butt if and inch! He is just the smallest one I have ever seen!
 

diamc

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This should help you with sexing them but the little one is probably too young yet. http://www.beardeddragon.org/articles/sexing/ The females do have femoral pores too but they are much less visible.

I know what you mean about seeing them at pet stores, I got 3 from a small pet store too, they just tore my heart out seeing them there. It's a good thing you got your 1st one from there since all the others didn't survive. :(

If you could measure the littlest one tomorrow from the tip of his nose to the end of his tail, I would be interested to find out his length. Most pet stores sell them when they are way to young and too small. :roll: I do suggest that you give him a bath tomorrow, test the temp by the inside of your wrist, should feel warm but not cold or hot. I explained above about the container and cloth on the bottom. He would probably be more comfortable laying in the palm of your hand with your hand lowered in the water, that should be less stressful for him the 1st few times. If you do decide to put him down in the container, make sure you watch him very closely because babies can drown in a very small amount of water and that's why we don't recommend using a water dish in a tank where a baby is.

Glad to hear that the food chart was helpful, just about all of us refer to it.

Does your thermometer looks similar to this? http://www.petmountain.com/show_product/501969/?utm_source=celebros&utm_medium=search&utm_term=501969 If so, those thermometers can be off by as much as 20 degrees. Those measure the temp of the glass rather than the basking SURFACE temp which is what you need to know. Walmart has the AcuRite brand digital thermometer with probe that will give the basking & cool side temp at the same time as well as humidity level. It costs about $12.00 and is well worth the $, they have it in the area where the outdoor plastic thermometers are sold, probably the garden center. Here's a picture of it:
100_0297.jpg

What you do is lay the probe end right on the basking spot so that it is touching it, place the thermometer part way over on the bottom of the cool side, wait about 45 min for the temp to stop rising, then the "out" reading is the basking and the "in" reading for the cool side. Do you have a Walmart near you?

Regarding feeding baby food, it's a good idea to have some chicken, squash and applesauce on hand at all times. Sometimes for one reason or another, a beardie won't eat and start to lose a little weight. A little chicken mixed with some squash helps give them a boost and a lot of times they again start eating on their own. You can use a plastic (not glass) medicine dropper and put drops on their nose for them to lick off. Usually once they get a taste of it, they really like it. If your baby doesn't start eating soon, you could feed some to him. The applesauce helps with impactions. I always heat the baby food up just a little to take the chill off and that makes it more pleasant for them. Heating it in a small dish with just a small amount of water helps thin it just a little.

I never liked reptiles either and if anyone had told me years ago that I'd have 4 of them, I would have told them that they were crazy! :shock: But now I can't imagine not have all of them, they are the sweetest and also have such unique personalities. :D
 

Lunabug911

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Original Poster
After your last post to me I did give it a bath. Some of the color came back and he didn't return to the dark black color but he was still grayish in color. But I will see how tomorrow goes with him, cuz after I gave him a bath he actually sat up under the basking light for the first time. As for the the gauge it was kind of like the first one, so i told my hubby we have to go to wally world monday, cuz he works all day tomorrow. I will try to measure him tomorrow. As for the sex of the older ones. I looked at all the pictures before. I am sure one is male and other female... hoping there look don't change after awhile. Ya I can honestly say they sold the baby too early. My husband thinks someone brought them in, someone off the steets and they are selling them. He wouldn't eat tonight, so when I wake up in the morning and after I have their light on for a few hours I will try again. I will let you know how it is doing!
 

diamc

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I'm glad you gave him a bath, sounds like he handled it pretty well. He may have been a little dehydrated so a bath should help perk him up. Even bathing daily is fine. I usually recommend at least 3 to 4 times a wk. That must have been cute seeing him sit up under his basking light, bet you melted. :D

I hope he eats for you tomorrow. Might be a good idea to try hand feeding him a few crickets to see if that helps get him started. Are the crickets no larger than the space between his eyes?

Yes, be sure to update me tomorrow and good luck.
 

Lunabug911

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Update: He is a little bit over 4 inches. ( not good with the ruler thing ) :?:

He ate 7 crickets before I walked away and stopped counting. 8)

After his first cricket he pooped, which was weird to watch since I never saw mine do it.( Looked completely healthy ) :mrgreen:

He went back to its pretty self last night when it went to bed like usual, but then woke up black again. I held it for a minute and it went simi back to its color and then went back to black a minute or so later. :banghead:

I tryed to feed it some baby applesause and it took one bite and didn't want anymore. :(

It has a dish of veggies, but he hasn't touched it, and I am aware young ones really won't. I thought I would try. :p

I will update a little later to see if he is calming down since he has ate and let you know!
 
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