I -really- need advice

[Vakon]

Gork has been having on and off fecal issues for a while and I'm getting a bit desperate. Throughout October it seemed to lead to an episode that resulted in him staying overnight at the vet. I got a test done the same month and he was diagnosed with pin worms. He was treated for those with a medication taken bi-weekly and things seemed to get better. However, his poos never really became completely healthy looking stools afterward though, just better looking than the bad ones.

Lately he's fallen back into having bad ones again that cause him visual discomfort, with the twist now that he goes about 4 days without pooing and then having a bad one (this is the second week in a row this has happened). Oddly enough this pattern seemed to start when I got him a ceramic heater because I thought maybe it was a heat issue. A day after I got it he had the healthiest stool I'd seen in a long time. He had another a day or so later. Then he fell into the pattern described above.

Does anybody have any idea what might be wrong? I'm starting to doubt that this could be pin worms again and I really don't want to spend so much money at the vet once more when there could be something I could possibly do to make it better. Does anybody have any suggestions?

Note: his substrate is play sand

 

[Gail]

I'd bet almost anything the sand is the problem, not only will it build up in the intestines but it harbors bacteria and parasite eggs. You should probably change it and then give him time to get all the sand out of his body. I had a gecko once who pooed sand for almost a month after I got her.
Pin worms usually cause runny, smelly poo, not problems with going.

Also, what are you feeding and what are your temps? Do you give baths?

 

[spyder79]

Yeah, as gail stated, the sand will harbor parasites and their eggs and can easily re-infest your dragon. You should either bake the current sand you have, buy all new sand (sifting all the large pieces out of it), or (and this is my main opinion as its the safest) replace the sand with something non-particle (like non-adhesive shelf liner, tile, newspaper, or papertowels).

as to the problems. Did you use a probiotic after the medication run? Digestion issues can also occur after a dragon is medicated because that medication kills not only the bad parasites but the good as well. You should look into getting some accidophiliz(SP) from beautifuldragons.com or look for o'soy yogurt at like walmart.

 

[Vakon]

I feed him a dish of collard greens daily, sometimes with cut up green bean. And every other day I feed him about 10 crickets. Twice a week the crickets are powdered with a 1:1 mix of Calcium & D3 powder and a Multi Vitamin powder (this mix just started this week, before it was just the Calcium & D3).

The temperature is between 80-85 F on the cold side of the cage, and about 85-90 F on the hotter side at ground level, presumably hotter under the higher basking areas above.

I was bathing him last week about every day, but that was because he seemed to be wanting to brumate. This week that behaviour (spending all day in his cave) has stopped, so I haven't been bathing him.

I have actually been meaning to change his substrate from sand to tile, so this news has helped to reinforce that decision.

Thank you very much for your help, I greatly appreciate it. These issues of his have been worrying significantly. If you have any more advice after reading these details I'd love to hear it.

EDIT: In response to spyder79
The sand has since treatment has been changed at least once, and no I did not use any probiotic, I was unaware that something like that was necessary. My vet did not tell me anything. It has been over a month since being on the medication, however, so would I still need to get him something like that?

 

[spyder79]

here is the issue. ITs possible that he is re-contaminated (signs of brumation and signs of parasite infestation are very similar). I suggest taking in another fecal sample for testing. Also, yes it is still a good idea to use the probiotic to allow his natural gut flora to normalize. Now i have some suggestions/questions. From reading your post you do not normally soak your dragon? It is suggested that you soak them 2-3 times a week for proper hydration (proper hydration helps with passing stool). And from the way you stated your temps i would take it you are using some type of dial/stick on thermometer, is that correct? Those are highly inaccurate not to mention you need a specific range for temps with dragons. cool side high 70s to very low 80s ambient tank temp of low to mid 80s and basking site of 100-115. You need to get a digital probe thermometer or a infrared tempgun from tempgun.com

 

[BeardyDragon]

have you tried coccidial checks? coccidia can cause runny poo.

 

[Vakon]

have you tried coccidial checks? coccidia can cause runny poo.

The last fecal check I got done didn't say anything about those. It's not a different test, is it?

 

[BeardyDragon]

No, it's not. It is a type of bacteria in the beardie's gut, and if it gets out of control, then it can be a problem.

 

[Vakon]

Well if it isn't a separate test then I guess I don't really have to worry about those as a possibility since they didn't mention them as being part of the problem.

Also thought it might be worth mentioning that he pooed yesterday and it was well formed and not runny at all. I'm not saying the problem is solved, but could parasites be ruled out as the problem considering the condition of that fecal? I'm not sure if parasitic infections cause feces to always be runny or just often runny.

I bought some tiles today and will be removing the sand and placing them in shortly.

 

[BeardyDragon]

Good. They may be desert reptiles, but they should never be put on sand. If they ingest any, it can constipate, or impact them. I would still recommend Sani-Chips from Zilla or T-Rex, but ingestion should still be avoided. Post some pics and tell us what you're feeding it.

 

[Vakon]

Hey, sorry for not posting, I just finished my exams today. I'll get some pictures up as soon as possible.

I believe in my second post I detailed the things I've been feeding him, so you'll find that info there.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

How old is your dragon? If you are only using calcium 2 times per week, he may be slightly calcium deficient which can greatly affect his GI tract & stools as well.
I do suggest also, changing to tile as loose substrate in captivity is usually not a good idea. I realize a lot of people use it, but you do have to remember that in the wild while yes, there is "loose" substrate around, it is different. The red clay/dirt & sand does not "clump up" like the calcium based reptile sands that are being used which is what contributes to impaction. We have to keep everything very clean when using a loose substrate because it is virtually impossible to clean all of the stool with the liquid when they do go potty in their tanks. So, any eggs or worms, etc, can stay behind increasing the chances of ingestion or reinfection unfortunately.

Tracie

 

[diamc]

That's good that you will be removing the sand and replacing with tiles, much safer that way.

I noticed that you're feeding collards and green beans, you might want to offer some other greens from this list to keep him interested: http://www.beautifuldragons.503xtreme.com/Nutrition.html

I agree with Spyder that it does sound like you're using a type of stick-on thermometer. Those can be off by as much as 20 degrees. The only 2 ways to get accurate readings are with either a digital thermometer with long wire & probe end or an infrared temp gun. If the temps are off, it will affect their total health including digestion and pooping. It's important to find out what the actual basking temp is so you need to use either a probe thermometer or temp gun to get the temp right on that spot. What size tank is he in and what is the wattage of your basking bulb?

How old is your beardie?

 

[Vakon]

I got Gork February 21, 2001 and he was just a wee baby at the time, so I would guess he's approaching one year of age.

Thank you for the suggestion with the food. As a matter of fact, lately he'd seemed less interested in his greens. Today my dad purchased dandelion greens instead of collards because they were all out, and he showed much more interest in having dandelion again.

It has now been a week since I changed from sand to tile, though it seems he's still getting the sand out of his system (it has been a few days since he has gone again, and his last fecal had sand in it)

I actually bought a digital thermometer before the tiles, so the numbers are:
Basking ledge - 108.9 degrees F
Centre - 89.4 degrees F
Cool side - 84.7 degrees F

His basking light is a 150 Watt bulb, and he has a 100 Watt ceramic heater hanging in the colder side but pointed toward the warmer side. The enclosure is 36 x 18 x 23 inches

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Are you using a UVB light? If so, what type & brand are you using, is it a florescent tube bulb or a compact/coil light? How old is the UVB light?
How is he doing today, any improvements with him? Please keep us posted on him. If you are not using a UVB light, that could be a large part of the problem along with the impaction, too.

Tracie