I am so so so confused...Long

[wikidinc528]

First just let me answer these questions and get them out of the way.

How old is your dragon? I am guessing 9 mo. to 1 year, but have no idea. I was told six months but don't believe it.
How long have you had your dragon? 8 days
How long is your dragon? A little over 13 inches
What is the sex of your dragon? male
What size enclosure do you have your dragon in? 4'x2'x18"
What type substrate do you have on the bottom of your tank? Slate tile
Do you use UVB lights? Yes
If so, Is it a coil, compact, fluorescent tube, or Mercury Vapor bulb? Mercury Vapor
What is the brand name and number of your bulb? Wattage (if MVB)? Powersun UV 100 W
How old is your UVB bulb? A week and a half
How close can your dragon get to the UVB? 8 inches
Do you use a separate basking bulb? What kind and what is the wattage? no, just the MVB
What are the basking temps? They range from 95F to 115F (There are steps of stones and wood so he has choices)
What is the cool side temp? Low 80s
Do you take the temps with a stick on thermometer, a digital thermometer with a wire and a probe end or a temp gun? Proexotics Temp Gun
Where exactly are you taking your basking temps? I aim the gun at the surface of the basking stone/wood.
Do you use a heat rock or heat pad? No
What do you feed your dragon? Please be specific. Protein: Combination of superworms, phoenix worms, and turkish latteralis roaches. Veggies: I use the Beautiful Dragons nutrition guide as a personal guide. Currently he receives Collards, acorn squash, occasionally some yam. I have given him prickly pear before, too. I have only seen him eat collards, a bite of p.pear, a bite of strawberry and some squash baby food since I have had him.
How often do you feed and what time do you feed (morning, afternoon, night)? I place a fresh, misted (water) salad in his viv in the morning along with a bowl worms. Sometimes if I can't get him to eat protein in the morning I will try again after I get home from work around 5 ish.
Do you gutload (feed) your crickets, worms, etc? Yes
Do you use vitamin or calcium supplements? What brand(s)? How many days a week do you use each of them? Calcium: RepCal w/ D3, 5x week. Vitamin: Herptivite, every four days.
Is your dragon having regular bowel movements (poops)? First two days I had him, he had a BM twice a day, then it went to once a day. I am not sure if he had a BM today as I was away and he is now asleep so I don't want to disturb him.
Do you bath your dragon? How often? I want to bathe him 3x a week, but have only been able to do it 1x a week as I don't want to over handle him and stress him out because he is still adjusting. I bathed him 4/12 and 4/19.
Do you mist your dragon or offer water other than in the bath? He has a water bowl that is changed daily and is also sprayed at least once a day, sometimes twice.
Does your dragon share an enclosure with another dragon? No, he's flying solo.
Have you gotten a vet check and fecal done? No. I have a vet appt. on 4/29. I did a fecal check myself today. See my post below.


Okay my problem is that I think I am getting conflicting information. I have heard that "fat and lazy lizards will be fat and lazy" and then I have heard that healthy beardies will be more active. I know that my bd is going through relocation stress and I have been trying to cause him as little stress as possible. He was not offered proper veggies in his previous two homes and I understand that it will take time before he learns that he should eat them. I understand that his parasite loads can be all out of whack and that with time it should stabilize. However, I am noticing things that I don't think are normal. I used to have Green Anoles and Iguanas and I don't think I ever witnessed this.

My bd seems to have narcolepsy. He sleeps all night, sometimes refuses to wake up in the morning, and then sleeps on his basking spot all day. This seems like too much sleeping to me. He will not go to his food dishes, I have not seen him drink any water while misting or from his dish (I know they don't like water dishes so much.) In order to get him to eat, I have to wake him up. Once he is fully awake and aware of his surroundings then he will notice the movement of the bugs and eat them. I feel that if he wasn't hungry then he wouldn't eat and that I am not forcing food on him in this way. However, if I don't wake him up, then he won't eat. As soon as he is done eating, he runs to his basking spot and falls asleep. The only other activity I notice from him is him getting all antsy right before he has to poop. Then he poops and promptly falls back asleep. I have talked to a few folks and they don't think it is normal that he is sleeping this much, however, another person I know says he is fine.

I posted before about a lump he has on his beard, and that will also be addressed on 4/29 with the vet. However I have read about different things that can happen when a lizard is infested with parasites and so I ran a fecal on him. Parasite infestation can lead to decreased appetite and lethargy. Before I start getting rude comments, understand that I am a biochemist and have access to a full lab. Not only that but I work currently with slide preparation. So I did a wet mount of my bd's feces taken from three different areas in the stool. I saw pinworms, a coccidia oocyst (or possibly a pinworm egg, I didn't want to go to oil immersion) and spirochete bacteria. The fecal I ran today is in no way replacing the fecal count that the vet will run. I just wanted to see for myself. I have considered Reptaid as a treatment but want to speak to the vet first. Also I know this vet, he works in my hospital and is seeing my bd out of the kindness of his heart, so I am pretty sure that he won't push unnecessary treatments on me. I plan to take a stool sample with me when I take my bd on 4/29.

So does he sound sick or just extremely lazy? I know I am worrying and probably a little unjustly, but it is only because I care.

Thanks,
Jenny

 

[Embee]

Hi Jenny,

I'm sorry your beardie is feeling off. I can't speak as to the parasites, all beardies have them of course, it's just a matter of how well they are being managed, enclosure/environement being key there. That said, your husbandry looks good, but two things did stand out to me that may help with the "narcolepsy" issue:

First, your beardie should have more distance from the MVB. It's a PowerSun, so not as strong as some, but 8 inches is too little a distance. At 8 inches, the MVB can be very harmful to the eyes, and over time, can cause radiation poisoning. I'd say 10 inches tops, but the general rule is a minimum of 12 inches of distance for a 100w MVB, 18 inches for 160w. I would adjust the height ASAP, and see if that doesn't encourage beardie to step up, so to speak. :wink:

Also, try to get your basking temps more in the area of the recommended, 105-110. Too hot of temps can cause dehydration, and in many cases, cause beardie to avoid the basking area altogether. If moving the PowerSun up effects temps to the point of going below the recommended 105-110, you can use a LOW wattage basking/household incandescent to boost the temps.

In avoiding basking, your beardie sounds like he is guarding himself, and actually this is a better scenario than him basking under a MVB that is too close. His "laziness" at this point, is keeping him safe. There have been incidences here on the board where a beardie has basked at a distance of 8 inches under a PowerSun 100w, and he ended up with some rather severe eye and radiation issues, so my feelings is, your beardie is one smart cookie! :mrgreen:

Let's see if "tweaking" these couple of things doesn't bring him out of hiding. Let me know how it goes!

Thanks,
Em

ETA: Our beardie, if she falls alseep in the cool end of the tank, does have hard time waking up. Usually, I move her to the warmer end after lights out, or if I not, I have to actually get her up and plop her in the basking area/warm end in the am if I want to get her up and going in a timely manner. It helps to get the feeding schedule under way.

 

[Embee]

Oh, I am just curious... why wouldn't you believe he is 6 months? Was his enclosure insufficient? His size lines up right about 6 months, but if he's older, than perhaps he's a tad small, but not overly so.

 

[wikidinc528]

Thanks Embee. I will remove the highest stone in his enclosure when I go home. The problem is that he IS staying under the basking light all day, just asleep while doing it. For my enclosure (pictures in my blog) there is a fixture on the top of the roof that my MVB goes in. I can't move the bulb anywhere, unless I rip off the top of my enclosure which I am not willing to do...yet. I will play around with the stones when I go home tonight. He seems to like the top stone (hottest) though, oh well, tough for him. Sometimes he will go underneath his log and stick his head out into the light at floor level, too. I was worried that one of his problems could be his eyes, so I am glad that you mentioned that. I do notice that when he sleeps for the night in the cooler side that it takes longer for him to wake up, so that makes sense.

I am unsure of his age for six months due to the following reasons: The original owner was a complete dunce and didn't feed him well...AT ALL. In addition to that he was "guessing" that Taj is/was about six months and Taj was purchased by him at Petsmart. I also have thought, could be wrong, that I read on here before that six month olds were smaller than 13-14 inches. So I was just thinking that he could be a smallish 9 mo. old. He is getting some good spikes and spines though.

 

[Embee]

Thanks Embee. I will remove the highest stone in his enclosure when I go home. The problem is that he IS staying under the basking light all day, just asleep while doing it. For my enclosure (pictures in my blog) there is a fixture on the top of the roof that my MVB goes in. I can't move the bulb anywhere, unless I rip off the top of my enclosure which I am not willing to do...yet. I will play around with the stones when I go home tonight. He seems to like the top stone (hottest) though, oh well, tough for him. Sometimes he will go underneath his log and stick his head out into the light at floor level, too. I was worried that one of his problems could be his eyes, so I am glad that you mentioned that. I do notice that when he sleeps for the night in the cooler side that it takes longer for him to wake up, so that makes sense.

I'm sorry for misunderstanding about where he was laying (that's what I get for attempting to answer posts late at night :roll: ). Indeed, he may not be so much sleeping, but shielding his eyes. Here is a link to a thread where a beardie was able to get to within 8 inches of the bulb. There is some wonderful advice given by moderator Tracie (Drache613) that may be of use to you: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=98207&p=764074&hilit=powersun#p764074

Indeed, if you can't raise the bulb, you can always lower the basking area.

I am unsure of his age for six months due to the following reasons: The original owner was a complete dunce and didn't feed him well...AT ALL. In addition to that he was "guessing" that Taj is/was about six months and Taj was purchased by him at Petsmart. I also have thought, could be wrong, that I read on here before that six month olds were smaller than 13-14 inches. So I was just thinking that he could be a smallish 9 mo. old. He is getting some good spikes and spines though.

I gotcha. I figured it was something like this, but was curious all the same. Dragon size is somewhat individual, and of course depends upon husbandry. Here is a link to a reputable growth chart FYI: http://www.dachiu.com/beardeddragoncare/growthcharts.html

Best of luck to you!

Em

 

[wikidinc528]

Em, thank you. Honestly you have helped give me more answers than my supposed reputable source on the outside has. I was even thinking last week that he was acting like he was having trouble seeing and could possibly be a little blind. I will heed your advice as soon as I get home. I am glad that I decided to post here because I just felt in my gut that something could have been wrong. I am hoping that as it has only been a hair over a week that no permanent damage has been done to him. Thank you. I will make your advised changes and continue to watch him and update.

 

[wikidinc528]

Oh sorry, I forgot to mention that the Dachiu growth chart is fantastic. I will definitely save that and use it. Looks like according to that Taj may be 15-16 weeks old. Or at least that is the type of growth he is displaying.

I just called my fiancee from work and told him to remove the top stone from Taj's enclosure. I will measure the distance from basking spot to bulb as well as the temp (which should be in range) when I get home from work and post it here. Taj did have a BM yesterday and today. Taj did not eat yesterday and did not eat today. I offered him beardie salad and supers both days and he didn't touch either. He was misted both days.

 

[wikidinc528]

Taj did not have a BM today, my fiancee was wrong. My fiancee moved the top rock away, but the rock underneath was still giving higher basking temps (115) so I removed that rock too. I now have 12 inches between the tip of the MVB and the slate tile. However when I tested the slate tile after a while of having the cage closed with the light on, it ranged from 108 to 111. I have his branch close by and a couple rocks close by but not directly beneath the MVB. The rock to the immediate left of the basking spot temped at 105 to 106.

Taj did not eat any protein today. However, when I was moving stuff around in his cage he became much more active and started exploring (it was like he was seeing his viv for the first time or something.) He even ran over to his food dish and tried eating his dried up salad from this morning. I of course ruined this though by jumping up to the fridge to get him some fresh greens, which he wouldn't eat. But, this does prove that he knows where the food is brought to and he will eat them...sometimes. After I was done moving stuff around I just watched him run around. He dove into his vines and started wriggling in them. I noticed though that he had turned a very dark brown color, I tried to get a picture but I didn't want to disturb him too much so the one I got isn't very great. I guess he got upset that I moved things and didn't put them back as I usually do. He usually watches me move things around to clean his messes, but I didn't put them back to the original way this time, with good reason.

Here are some pictures:

Viv before:

Viv after I rearranged it tonight:

Various pictures of him sleeping on Sat and Sun, some after I removed the log. He has full use of his legs, he just does this when he sleeps:

This is him turning dark, hard to see, sorry:

I wish I could be here tomorrow to watch him, but unfortunately I have that little thing called work. I am hoping though that the energy boost he experienced this evening will continue.

 

[diamc]

Hi Jenny, Em has given you some great advice. It certainly seems like Taj likes the temps you are getting now and also the farther distance from the MVB. Your setup looks very nice.

I did want to suggest that you increase the baths if you can, even 15 min each time would be beneficial. I would go easy with the superworms as they are harder for a 13" beardie to digest and some owners have noticed impaction problems when feeding them. Superworms also seem to affect their pooping schedule due to their harder shell.

I noticed that you're giving the calcium 5 days a wk which is great but since you're using a MVB, you should actually get some calcium without D3 because the MVB's produce their own. Also, I would cut back the vitamins to 2 days a wk, the 2 days that you're not giving the calcium as too many vitamins could cause him to OD on them.

Let us know how Taj does tomorrow, hopefully he will be awake more and be more active. He is a real cutie.

 

[Embee]

when I was moving stuff around in his cage he became much more active and started exploring (it was like he was seeing his viv for the first time or something.) He even ran over to his food dish and tried eating his dried up salad from this morning. I of course ruined this though by jumping up to the fridge to get him some fresh greens, which he wouldn't eat. But, this does prove that he knows where the food is brought to and he will eat them...sometimes. After I was done moving stuff around I just watched him run around. He dove into his vines and started wriggling in them. I noticed though that he had turned a very dark brown color, I tried to get a picture but I didn't want to disturb him too much so the one I got isn't very great. I guess he got upset that I moved things and didn't put them back as I usually do. He usually watches me move things around to clean his messes, but I didn't put them back to the original way this time, with good reason.

As Diane mentioned, it is very encouraging that he was moving around some. Now that the temps are in a better place, and the MVB is at a safe distance, I imagine you will see Taj perking up in the days to come. He has all our best wishes and support!

Thank you SO MUCH Diane for picking up on the things I missed. The back up around here is simply excellent. :mrgreen:

Here is a link to Rep-Cal withOUT D3, in case you need Jenny (sometimes it can be a challenge to find it in store): http://www.petmountain.com/product/reptile-health/105556/rep-cal-ultrafine-calcium-without-vitamin-d3.html.

Do keep us posted, Jenny!

The best,
Em

 

[wikidinc528]

Real quick as I am typing a fact sheet for my vet.


My vet from my hospital has canceled on me twice. :evil:

So I tried to find another one and did. I have an appointment at 3 with her.

Moving his mvb did improve his lethargy AND he was about to go into shed. He is again being lethargic though, but I think he is about to shed another part of his body.


He is turning yellow...I don't know if that is health related or if he is just going to be yellow. I hope the vet will have an answer. The lump on his beard hasn't gotten any smaller or larger but I am hoping that the vet will give me a better indication of what the heck it is. He is/was eating a little better. He was eating bites of salad last week but has again went back to only wanting protein. I have been trying to limit his super worm consumption and mix them with Phoenix worms. He likes the PW a lot, so that is good. Once I have fed all the supers I will start him on his roaches as the supers are living in Taj's feeding bin... :?


I hope to get some answers today...

 

[Embee]

Real quick as I am typing a fact sheet for my vet.


My vet from my hospital has canceled on me twice. :evil:

So I tried to find another one and did. I have an appointment at 3 with her.

Moving his mvb did improve his lethargy AND he was about to go into shed. He is again being lethargic though, but I think he is about to shed another part of his body.


He is turning yellow...I don't know if that is health related or if he is just going to be yellow. I hope the vet will have an answer. The lump on his beard hasn't gotten any smaller or larger but I am hoping that the vet will give me a better indication of what the heck it is. He is/was eating a little better. He was eating bites of salad last week but has again went back to only wanting protein. I have been trying to limit his super worm consumption and mix them with Phoenix worms. He likes the PW a lot, so that is good. Once I have fed all the supers I will start him on his roaches as the supers are living in Taj's feeding bin... :?


I hope to get some answers today...

Thank you for the update, and yes, I do hope you're able to get some answers from your new vet. Please keep us posted!

Em

 

[Loganator]

Hey Jenny! It might be your PowersunUV MVB. Read these posts on the subject of that Powersun bulb causing eye closing and "hiding and sleeping" alot.
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[MissT]

Hi there,

My beardie is currently suffering from eye problems due to the powersun 100w. It was in her viv for approx 72 hours (max). I took it out on Wednesday morning and still, now, on Thursday night, she is yet to open her eyes. Check out http://www.uvguide.co.uk/mercvapourfloods.htm#zoomedpowersun for some more info on the powersun bulbs.

Hope this helps
T

 

[wikidinc528]

Thanks guys. Taj received a clean bill of health from the vet. He weighs 90 grams and she said he appears to be on the right track. I have to take a sample in for a fecal but so far so good. Since I adjusted the distance his powersun is away from his basking site, he is doing much better. He is less lethargic and seems happier. He is shedding right now and turns out that he just may end up being yellow which is a surprise.

His appetite is picking up too. He is starting to eat more greens slowly. So far the only thing he likes though is collard greens.