How to tell if a dragon is too thin

[Varalidaine]

I do think his fat pads look a bit thin. Bring a fecal sample (poop!) with you for parasite testing. Since reptiles are cold-blooded, they process medication very slowly, so you only want to treat if you know they have parasites. You would also need to know which parasites to treat. If it's things like Pinworms or Giardia, you can use Fenbendazole, which is an excellent and effective medication. If it's Coccidia, you'll need Baycox/Toltrazuril. Many vets will prescribe Albon for Coccidia, but I do NOT reccomend that. It's an old school and harsh medication. Baycox is more effective and gentler on their system. While treating for parasites, make sure to give probiotics during treatment, as the medication will kill off both good and bad gut bacteria.

You can get Acidophiliz here (probiotic): http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Acid.html
I purchase from her all the time and the best part is every purchase from her store helps fund her reptile rescue!

You can get Baycox here: http://www.beardeddragon.co/index.php?route=product/product&path=60&product_id=478
And Fenbendazole here: http://www.beardeddragon.co/index.php?route=product/product&path=60&product_id=113

 

[Spyrosmom]

My vet told me he looks healthy, weighing in at 220 grams. I had him send a fecal out anyway and I want to start feeding bsfl. If I order them online by the 1000, how do I take care of them once they get here?

 

[Varalidaine]

How old is Spyro? It's recommended to get fecal tests done at least every 6 months anyway

As for the BSFL, I would grow them in batches. BSFL can pupate pretty quickly. I would store the 2,000 in a chiller of some sort (fridge is usually too cold, wine chiller is best) or at least store in the coldest area of the house or warmest area of the fridge to stall pupation. Then take out groups of about 200 at a time to grow them and prepare them for being fed off. Guide to growing them is here: viewtopic.php?f=76&t=191525

 

[Spyrosmom]

He just turns six months tomorrow! They sent in his fecal test so should hear back tomorrow or Thursday! I don't want to grow my own bsfl unfortunately. Tried it with meal worms and it's just not my forte. If I order them 1000 at a time and keep them in the basement (coolest area of the house) would they end up turning into flies before I had the chance to actually feed them to him? And would I have to provide food or anything for them?

How old is Spyro? It's recommended to get fecal tests done at least every 6 months anyway

As for the BSFL, I would grow them in batches. BSFL can pupate pretty quickly. I would store the 2,000 in a chiller of some sort (fridge is usually too cold, wine chiller is best) or at least store in the coldest area of the house or warmest area of the fridge to stall pupation. Then take out groups of about 200 at a time to grow them and prepare them for being fed off. Guide to growing them is here: viewtopic.php?f=76&t=191525

 

[Varalidaine]

When I say grow, I don't mean breed. BSFL are small at best. You'll want to take a batch and put them in a warmer spot in the house in an escape proof container, then feed them either squash baby food, homemade blended greens, are gel foods like Repashy Superload. This will make them double in size and become much more nutritious for your dragon since you always want to gutload your feeders. If you try and feed all 1,000 at once, they'll start escaping to try and pupate, and if you don't feed them and just leave them in the basement, they'll be starved and not as nutritious for your dragon. So you need to keep the bulk of the batch cold and then take small batches up to feed for a few days to a week before feeding to your dragon. The larva will get significantly larger, meaning your dragon won't have to eat as many, which saves you money, plus they'll be much higher in nutrition. Just take a look at the post I linked. She explains it all very well in simple terms and has excellent photos.

 

[Spyrosmom]

When I say grow, I don't mean breed. BSFL are small at best. You'll want to take a batch and put them in a warmer spot in the house in an escape proof container, then feed them either squash baby food, homemade blended greens, are gel foods like Repashy Superload. This will make them double in size and become much more nutritious for your dragon since you always want to gutload your feeders. If you try and feed all 1,000 at once, they'll start escaping to try and pupate, and if you don't feed them and just leave them in the basement, they'll be starved and not as nutritious for your dragon. So you need to keep the bulk of the batch cold and then take small batches up to feed for a few days to a week before feeding to your dragon. The larva will get significantly larger, meaning your dragon won't have to eat as many, which saves you money, plus they'll be much higher in nutrition. Just take a look at the post I linked. She explains it all very well in simple terms and has excellent photos.

wow. That looks easy too! I'll be starting that little project as soon as I get home from vacation. Thanks!

 

[Spyrosmom]

UPDATE: ugh. That vet was pretty much clueless honestly. I was kinda lenient yesterday, when I mentioned his sunken head fat pads and the doctor didn't know what I was talking about. He handed me a pamphlet (filled with things any beginner beardie owner would know) and said "he looks healthy to me. Do you still want me to send the fecal to be tested?".... um yes. I did. And good thing. Spyro has coccidia AND pinworm. He called to tell me "you don't need to treat the pinworm but we will ship you medicine for the coccidia". Will be going to a new vet. OF COURSE I need to treat the pinworm as well. They're robbing my poor baby of proper nutrition. I ordered fenbendazol online. Hopefully will have both medications by Monday or Tuesday. Won't mix though. I will take care of the coccidia first, then wait a week and treat for pinworm. I'm so upset with this vets ignorance. If I hadn't insisted on the fecal, Spyro would have gotten sicker and sicker. Poor baby is basically starving even though he's eating. Will keep you guys posted.

 

[Varalidaine]

What medication did they prescribe for the Coccidia?

I would actually treat pinworms first, because they are much easier to get rid of. When my dragon had both I did pinworms first. I recommend a once weekly treatment schedule for up to three weeks. With 10% Fenbendazole and your your dragons weight, you would do something like this:

Week 1 Day 1: Give .11ml Fenbendazole before any food, waiting 1-2 before feeding. Wait a week before giving second dose but feed regularly.
Week 2: Give second dose of .11mL Fenbendazole, before food and waiting 1-2 hours before feeding.

It should be cleared up by then, but if not you can do a third round. After fenbendazole treatment, give him one week without any medication and then go for the coccidia. All the while you'll need a disinfectant that cleans coccidia, something like F10SC or this: http://www.beardeddragon.co/index.php?route=product/product&path=73&product_id=483

Also for now, keep as little as possible in the tank and make sure your substrate is easy to clean like tile or paper towel. Every time he poops, remove it immediately. Remove your dragon and spray down the tank with the disinfectant. Bake all decor items for at least 15 minutes at a low temperature like 225, even if he didn't poop on them. You can also switch to cardboard boxes for basking for now so all you have to do is throw it away. Even dust from feces can carry parasite eggs, which is why you have to make things as clean as possible, even things he didn't poop on because there could be fecal dust in the tank. Bleach and vinegar do not kill coccidia.

And make sure to get him a probiotic to feed daily. The medication will kill off all gut bacteria, making him pretty cranky and unwilling to eat. The probiotic will help him feel better while his body metabolizes the medication.

 

[Spyrosmom]

What medication did they prescribe for the Coccidia?

I would actually treat pinworms first, because they are much easier to get rid of. When my dragon had both I did pinworms first. I recommend a once weekly treatment schedule for up to three weeks. With 10% Fenbendazole and your your dragons weight, you would do something like this:

Week 1 Day 1: Give .11ml Fenbendazole before any food, waiting 1-2 before feeding. Wait a week before giving second dose but feed regularly.
Week 2: Give second dose of .11mL Fenbendazole, before food and waiting 1-2 hours before feeding.

It should be cleared up by then, but if not you can do a third round. After fenbendazole treatment, give him one week without any medication and then go for the coccidia. All the while you'll need a disinfectant that cleans coccidia, something like F10SC or this: http://www.beardeddragon.co/index.php?route=product/product&path=73&product_id=483

Also for now, keep as little as possible in the tank and make sure your substrate is easy to clean like tile or paper towel. Every time he poops, remove it immediately. Remove your dragon and spray down the tank with the disinfectant. Bake all decor items for at least 15 minutes at a low temperature like 225, even if he didn't poop on them. You can also switch to cardboard boxes for basking for now so all you have to do is throw it away. Even dust from feces can carry parasite eggs, which is why you have to make things as clean as possible, even things he didn't poop on because there could be fecal dust in the tank. Bleach and vinegar do not kill coccidia.

And make sure to get him a probiotic to feed daily. The medication will kill off all gut bacteria, making him pretty cranky and unwilling to eat. The probiotic will help him feel better while his body metabolizes the medication.

I have cocoa shell sand as a substrate... should I completely dump that and switch to something else? He loves his sand to dig "beds" into under his hide. Could I dump the sand in there right now, then switch to all new sand? So dump the sand, take the decor out, spray the tank, soak the decor, wait for the tank to dry, put totally new sand, put back everything and then it's safe to put the dragon in? Also- should I wait until after his first week of coccidia treatment to clean the tank so no more eggs are put into the environment through his stool after I clean it? And is it 100% safe to use this cleaner as long as I let it completely dry before I put Spyro back in the tank?

 

[Spyrosmom]

Also... he literally is all over my house all the time. Walking around my room, the living room, in my bed, on the couches, everywhere. In contact with my dogs as well. The whole house could be infected... and my dogs could be too. How am I gunna contain and kill it? Is it just going to keep coming back?

 

[Varalidaine]

Almost every animal carries Coccidia in their gut but healthy immune systems keep levels low. Dragons, unfortunately, have very poor immune systems and need frequent dewormings (mines needs it about twice a year). If you have a steam cleaner, you can steam clean the carpets and any hard surfaces he was on, and just wash any bedding. Real easy and simple.

As for your substrate, I'm confused, is it coconut fiber like Eco Earth or sand/walnut shell? The sand/shell is significantly more dangerous, but either way, I don't reccomend loose substrates for dragons because of their poor immune systems and the parasites they carry. Even if he was perfectly healthy, you would still want a solid substrate for easy cleaning and disinfecting. Regardless of wether he has parasites or not, feces should always be removed immediately and the tank at least wiped/sprayed down. Because they carry the parasites naturally, they will always be pooping small amounts out, and having a loose substrate will allow the parasites to remain in the tank and constantly reinfect the dragon. I prefer tile because it's the most Eco-friendly option. You buy it once and you're done. Clean up is easy as well, I rinse the tile and then bake it in the oven to sanitize it.

You should always have a strict cleaning regimen. Whenever he poops, you want to remove it asap and sanitize that spot. If using things like fleece or paper towel, then switch it out or if using tile, bake it. It's only when they have something like Coccidia that you had to be extra crazy with it and sanitize the entire tank and decor every time he poops until levels are down.

If you want to provide a place for him to dig, you can get something like a large water bowl or snake soaking bowl and fill that alfalfa pellets, millet seed, Eco earth, or children's play sand. You just won't want to give him that until the Coccidia clears.

And for the spray, follow the directions. Never spray in the presence of the animal. Take your dragon out and spray the tank down, wipe up any feces, and spray the wiped spot again. The cleaner I linked to, you want to let set sit for 10-15 minutes. It'll dry on its own or you can wipe up the extra after the 15 minutes.

 

[Spyrosmom]

Thank you so much for your help. I might keep him in a separate tank for a couple weeks while I treat him for the coccidia and clean his tank/switch substrates. Then move him back once he's all cleared up, and get rid of the spare tank. I read that coccidia is usually host-specific so it's unlikely to infect my dogs (thank the Lord). I will keep him from running around the house until he's all cleared up, cause (according to what I'm reading on the internet) the coccidia can't survive outside his body (unless in feces) for more than a few days. Poor baby will have to be on temporary quarantine but it's what's best for him in the long run. I just want him to be healthy ? Also, where can I get a probiotic for beardies?

 

[Varalidaine]

Do you know what medication they prescribed for the Coccidia?

You can definitely switch him to a different tank while you clean his old one. You can use paper towel for now as substrate until you get something more permanent like tile if you want. Even when he's off meds and all cleared from parasites, you'll still want substrate that's easy to sanitize or else he'll just get reinfected after a few weeks again.

He'll probably be cranky! Haha you can still hold him for cuddles, but I wouldn't let him run around until he's better.

I use this probiotic: http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Acid.html
It's a lightly sweet liquid, so many dragons will take it on it's own. I love ordering from her because every purchase supports her dragon rescue! For the probiotics, make sure to give them daily for a few days before starting meds, to get his good gut bacteria built up a little. Treatment should look something like this:

Week 1:
Monday: Give Probiotics first thing about 1-2 hours after basking, 1 hour later offer veg/salad, offer some lunchtime buggies, 2 hours before bed offer dinner buggies
Tuesday: Give Probiotics first thing about 1-2 hours after basking, 1 hour later offer veg/salad, offer some lunchtime buggies, 2 hours before bed offer dinner buggies
Wednesday: Give .11ml Fenbendazole first thing 1-2 hours after lights on, Probiotics about 1 hour after meds, 1 hour later offer veg/salad, offer some lunchtime buggies, 2 hours before bed offer dinner buggies
Thursday: Give Probiotics first thing about 1-2 hours after basking, 1 hour later offer veg/salad, offer some lunchtime buggies, 2 hours before bed offer dinner buggies
Friday: Give Probiotics first thing about 1-2 hours after basking, 1 hour later offer veg/salad, offer some lunchtime buggies, 2 hours before bed offer dinner buggies
Saturday: Give Probiotics first thing about 1-2 hours after basking, 1 hour later offer veg/salad, offer some lunchtime buggies, 2 hours before bed offer dinner buggies
Sunday: Give Probiotics first thing about 1-2 hours after basking, 1 hour later offer veg/salad, offer some lunchtime buggies, 2 hours before bed offer dinner buggies
Week 2: Repeat Week 1
Week 3: Repeat Week 1
Week 4: No meds or probiotics
Week 5: Begin Coccidia treatment!

Always offer salad first to entice them into eating it. Most dragons won't eat, especially babies, if filled up on bugs! And he's young enough to still appreciate two daily feedings. And get a kitchen scale to weigh him weekly so you can up or lower the Fenbendazole dose as needed. You'll probably need to increase it just because he's a baby and will likely gain weight quickly!

Oh! And I mix all of my dragons meds with a pinch of this: http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Pangea.html
And he eats them happily! I don't like forcing meds and mine won't lick his on his own, so I mix a bit of Pangea and he goes crazy for it! He also started refusing his probiotics after a few days, so I mixed it with a pinch of this and he guzzled it down. I always highly reccomend it. It's good to have in your emergency kit for when you need to give meds, probiotics, or when they go off food and you need to syringe feed them. It also has bee pollen in it, a wonder supplement. It's the only substance in the world that contains every element in the human body. Essentially an all-natural multi-vitamin and super drug. Also helps immune system function. Bee Pollen contains at least 22 amino acids, 18 vitamins, 25 minerals, 59 trace elements, 11 enzymes or co-enzymes, 14 fatty acids, 11 carbohydrates and approximately 25 % protein. Bee pollen is extremely rich in carotenes, which are metabolic precursors of vitamin A. It is also high In B complex and vitamins C, D, E and Lecithin. Pangea is an excellent secret weapon

It's from the same place as the probiotic, so you can just do one order and get everything you need to make your little guy healthy, plus buying from her supports rescued dragons. Everyone wins!

 

[Varalidaine]

How has your dragon been? How is treatment?

 

[Spyrosmom]

How has your dragon been? How is treatment?

Treatment has been long lol. Still going on. He got through the pinworm treatment no problems. A little grumpy but not too bad. He hates taking the medicine. He's now in his first rounds of coccidia treatment. He's gained his weight back and looks so much healthier. Tomorrow is his 3 coccidia treatment (once every other day for 3 treatments) then he has a 10 day break, then he will have another 5 days with treatment every other day. He is much more happy and active, but not eating so much since we started the second medication so I am giving him the probiotic someone mentioned above on the off days of his treatment. While he has the 10 day break, he'll be staying in a separate tank while i clean and disinfect his regular tank. All in all, id say he's doing 10x better than he was!