How much Acidophilus should a Beardie get after de-worming?

[carmallarm]

I'm currently treating both Sunny and Draco for pinworms, and my vet has them on 0.1 mL of Pancur/day for days 1-4 and 10-13 of the treatment. I read on this forum that Pancur tends to kill off the beneficial flora and fauna of the lizards' small intestine, and that a case of yellow fungus disease can possibly follow a de-worming.

After doing some research on this forum, the best thing to do seemed to give them Acidophilus, which would help replenish the beneficial bacteria in their gut. I bought Acidophilus pills (powder in a gel capsule) that contained no milk, eggs, silica, etc. and some canned pumpkin, which someone posted here that he used to mix the Acidophilus into when giving it to the dragons.

My question is how much Acidophilus powder should I add per teaspoon (or mL or ounce or whatever unit of measurement) of canned pumpkin (or baby food or whatever I'm supposed to use), and how much/how often I should give the mixture to the lizards?

 

[KairaandTaz08]

I'm not sure about the pro-biotic, as I use the liquid type for reptiles. However, I am curious about yellow fungus being related to de-worming? That doesn't sound right. I've never heard of them "getting" yellow fungus after de-worming. Can you post the link? Yellow fungus just isn't related to pinworms. Both of mine had pinworms and were treated with Panacur. That was at least a month ago for Taz and even longer for Kaira...no yellow fungus here.
Sorry, I'm just really curious why they were considered to be connected.
Abi

 

[carmallarm]

Here's where I got my info:

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by niner on Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:58 pm:
"I would purchase a product called acidophiliz+ and start giving him right away since many worming meds and/or antibiotic treatments can cause a later case of yellow fungus disease. It is because the meds wipe out all bacteria in the gut, even the usefull needed ones so it leaves room for other things to flourish..."

 

[KairaandTaz08]

Ok I understand where you're coming from now. Niner is right, antibiotics DO wipeout the good bacteria and a probiotic is what most people recommend using to help get the good bacteria back in their systems, I'm one of those people .
I'm going to check, but I believe Panacur is totally different...meaning it's not an antibiotic (I'm not positive on this), so it's not as hard on their systems. My problem was primarily coccidia, which is treated with an antibiotic. I just don't remember if Panacur is because coccidia is a totally different type of parasite.
I'd still use a probiotic either way. As for yellow fungus being related to de-worming, I just don't think that's quite accurate. A weak immune system in general can make beardies more susceptible to yellow fungus. Also, poor housing (not cleaning up poop and that kind of stuff) can aid in yellow fungus. I just don't want you to think that because they have pinworms and are on Panacur that they are going to get yellow fungus.
So, aside from that, did you figure out how to dose the probiotic?
Abi

 

[carmallarm]

No, I'm still not sure how much of the Acidophilus powder they're supposed to get. I might just sprinkle it on their food, or mix it with pumpkin, or something like that. I'll give them maybe 1/4 of a tablet/day for a couple of days. I really have no idea how much to give them, so if I hear any negative feedback about this idea, I'll revise my plan.

I think that Sunny and Draco got elevated numbers of pinworms either from their first house or from the rescue before I picked them up. When I gave them their first bath, you would not believe the amount of dirt that came off of Draco! There was a line of dirt leading from him to the drain. :shock: In the shelter, Draco and Sunny were being kept together in a 20-gallon tank with poor lighting and basically at room temperature (there was only one 75-watt bulb on their tank and no heating pads) and only mealworms to eat, and walking through their feces (I think their tank was only cleaned maybe once a day, and that the poop wasn't cleared away right after they pooped, so it got on their feet). I think that these conditions lowered their immune systems to the point where the number of pinworms in their gut got too high.

Right now, I have them each in their own 40-gallon tank with under-tank heating pads, day-lights, night-lights, and UVB lamps, with newspaper on the floor and driftwood and hammocks to climb on. I let them poop every morning in the bath, so they almost never poop in their tanks.

They're definitely doing better than when I first picked them up, and I'm grateful every day for their fantastic appetites. Sunny's poop is still runny, though (today was the last day of their de-worming meds), and both of their poops still smell a lot, so I'm keeping in contact with my vet about whether I should bring in another set of fecal samples to have them re-checked for pinworms.

 

[KairaandTaz08]

Ok, let me see if I can find that post real quick about the probiotic and then I want to ask you a few more questions if you don't mind . But, no night light (unless it's a ceramic heat emitter), the light keeps them up at night. I'll get right back to you...I have to do some searching. You could also just get SOY yogurt, not dairy yogurt, at the store. It's the same concept as the Acidophilus.
Abi

 

[carmallarm]

I definitely noticed that infra-red lights kept them awake (I once bought that kind by accident, and returned it the next day). I use Exo-Terra moonlight bulbs for my Beardies, and it hasn't seemed to bother them. I think I read somewhere that it's in part of the spectrum where they can't see, but whatever the case is, it doesn't keep them awake. I also used these types of bulbs for Walker, my first BD, since she was little, and haven't found this type of bulb to be a problem.

I actually bought soy yoghurt (Stonyfield Farm brand), and then noticed a small label on the back saying "Contains soy and milk. Live cultures are milk based". That's why I decided to go with Acidophilus powder. It took a bit of searching, but I found some in the grocery store whose cultures were not grown on milk, came in powder form, and did not contain silica.

I guess I'm a little neurotic with these guys, partly because they were in questionable shape when I picked them up from the shelter, and partly due to my unresolved guilt over Walker (she died a little over a month ago from an extremely aggressive systemic infection. The vet said that I gave her the best care possible, but it was still a shock to lose her so qickly). I'm trying my best to do everything I can to get Sunny and Draco into top condition. Thanks so much for your help!

PS. I just noticed your pictures. Your red BD is gorgeous!! Where'd you get him/her from?

 

[KairaandTaz08]

I couldn't find the post, but here are a few that may help:
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From what I understand, you can't really overdose them on it. I think one post actually says 1/4 of the tablet...I just don't know enough about the powder stuff.
For the most part they get pinworms from feeders, although I've heard they are found "naturally" in their systems, also, so I don't really know. If the numbers are low with any type of parasite they can usually get rid of them by themselves. This doesn't seem to be the case with your two little ones, though and because it's pinworms, I *believe* the Panacur is less harmful than the meds for other parasites.
Their conditions before sound horrible! I just don't understand how people can do that.
I bet they LOVE the 40 gallon tanks! A 20 gallon is way too small for two beardies. It sounds like the poor conditions they were in before did lower their immune systems and they probably couldn't rid themselves of the pinworms. I'd take a sample in just in case...especially with runny stools still. The pinworms may have stressed them out and their coccidia levels (found naturally in their systems) may have gone up to an unsafe number. Then again, I don't recommend treating with meds (especially for coccidia) unless their counts are really high or they are having problems. I'm still treating Taz, that's a long story though.
I'm a little concerned about the under tank heaters though...why are you using them? Beardies can't feel heat on their bellies. I have no idea if you already know all of this or not, so I'm just going to go over all of it...sorry if I'm asking too many questions. What type of UVBs are you using?
That's great that their appetites are still up, that's always been my main concern with my two being on meds (Kaira's off now). No more mealworms, though, right?
I worry all the time about my two babies. I'm sorry you lost Walker. Stop feeling guilty, though, beardies hide illnesses and pain so well.
Oh, that'd be Taz, our grumpy boy. He's a little over 4 months old now and hopefully, he'll get an "all clear" from the vet Friday when we take in his sample. Kaira and Taz have both been battling coccidia for awhile now. They had pinworms, but we got rid of those really fast. I got him from a breeder. He gets "pink" when he's in a full-body shed! He looks so weird, but also so cute lol. Thank you, they are complete opposites color-wise and personalities.
I hope I didn't overwhelm you with questions or info that you already had.
Abi

 

[carmallarm]

I'm a little concerned about the under tank heaters though...why are you using them? Beardies can't feel heat on their bellies. I have no idea if you already know all of this or not, so I'm just going to go over all of it...sorry if I'm asking too many questions. What type of UVBs are you using?
That's great that their appetites are still up, that's always been my main concern with my two being on meds (Kaira's off now). No more mealworms, though, right?
Abi

Sorry it's taken me a while to respond. It's really been a crazy semester, and I've been overwhelmed with homework and papers and exams, etc... k, so I use Repti Therm undertank heaters, and I always put a rock or a towel or something above the substrate (newspaper) on the side of the tank above the heater, so they can't lay directly on the hot glass. The heaters to help to keep the tanks nice and warm, though. If I just used heat lamps, the bottoms of the cages would get cold. The warmth coming from underneath also helps the Beardies digest.

As for UVB, I'm using Repti Glo 10.0. I still feed mealworms, but only occasionally. I'm in the process of switching over to Dubias.

Here's an excerpt from an email I received from my vet a couple of days ago:
"I don't think it's a bad idea to repeat the fecal, I'd give them 5-7 days
off the treatment before repeating the fecal... If that's
negative, then we can look into other causes of the food pieces in Sunny's
stool. This can be normal for some animals or may respond to the bacterial
supplementation."

 

[Judah'sHuman]

Hello~ I crack open the capsule and give Judah about 1/3-1/4 of the capsule (so a pinch) it in a bb syringe with some bb food. 2 times per day should be plenty. What they dont use will be pooed out. and yep ya cant OD on good bacterias

 

[carmallarm]

What they dont use will be pooed out. and yep ya cant OD on good bacterias

Makes sense. All the feedback I've heard so far has been that Acidophilus can't hurt, and it might even help. Thanks Judah'sHuman for suggesting the dosage. 1/4-1/3 of a capsul seems like a good amount. I'll start Draco and Sunny on the supplements tomorrow morning.

 

[Judah'sHuman]

good good! please keep an eye on the bottom tank temps with the bottomheaters. Really these shoudl only be used on "hospital tanks" when you have parasites, like right now. But it is really hard for a BD to feel his temps properly when heated from below. It is not always that they can burn their bellies but they messure heat from the third eye on the head. When they get too hot then they go to shade or a cooler area of the tank. If there is no such area then they can dehidrate and over heat. The thing is if the temps above are a little cooler than what they are alying on then they dont know they are over heating because they dont have the smae senors as they do on the head to say, "wow im hot I need to get outa hear." So essentially they can cook. While they have parasites the cooler temps need to be a little higher Normally 75-80, right now should be 80-85 in the coolest spots. So if the ground is gettign any warmer than that you need to turn that off and get a hotter wattage of CHE. I personally have a 250watt CHE for my 55 gallon. this seems liek alot but it is about 60=63 deg in the room where I have judah and it keeps the temps perfect. This maybe way too much for your tank, but I dont have another basking bulb besides a MVB so this is ok for me. If you are away alot and not around to make sure they are not gaping in the heat it would best to turn the bottom heater off while you are gone, unless you are certain on the temps never fluctuate above my mention.

 

[carmallarm]

I've only seen them gape a couple of times (maybe twice in the last month), and I've never found the under-tank heaters to be a problem, but you do bring up a good point about the temps. I'll invest in a temperature gun with a probe and check the temps at the bottom of the tank to make sure I'm getting accurate readings.

 

[KairaandTaz08]

Hi again,
So how are they doing? Sunny was passing undigested food? From my experiences with Kaira and Taz, I agree with your vet (several others have also said the same on here, along with my own vet...who received a last minute fecal on a Friday night from us lol...we were concerned that the squash was something else that Kaira was passing...scary :shock: , but as far as I know, not uncommon).
Sorry about the crazy semester. I know how that can be!
I agree with Judah'sHuman about the heating pads and temps. I've never used a heating pad, personally, though.
Hope they are doing better ,
Abi

 

[Judah'sHuman]

yes you really should have a digital thermometer with a probe. You can get one from Walmart for $12 in the regular outdoor thermometer area. Any other types can be up to 20 deg's off. Also any form of heat that emitts light at night can be bad even the blue ones. For proper heating you really want an infared heater in a Ceramic heat emitter. Improper heat sources can cause undigested food, plus infrared penitrates the body much better and will help aid in digestion. I had one of those red heat bulbs for a while. It came from the previous owner and i had to use it until I could afford a CHE. I used the CHE for a while untill I started having problems with the fixture, long story, but anyways I had to send several of them back until I final got one that worked 9it was the fixture it was causing the blub to arch and burn out. Anyways I temporaily had to put the red heat lamp in there until I was shipped a new one. Poor Judah went from pooping everyday to pooping every 4 days. The temps were pretty good (105 under the red heater) but because the heat was just hot not being absorbed into the body he coudln't digest his food properly. Which in turn can lead to food rotting in the gut and causing internal parasites such as coccida etc. Just to explain a little further Infared is a wave length that can not bee seen by the human eye, it penitrates dense material causing a heated reaction. :study: So while other lighting, such as a household bulb, may keep you warm the infared actually passes through the body better aiding in digestion. There are also verious levels of infared and all though my Red heat bulb was in cositered "infared" because it emits heat it is not the same levels as a Ceramic heat emitter. I guess really what I'm trying to say hear is the the Ceramic heat emitters penitrate the body better with higher levels of infared with out nessesarly being really hot.