How long should basking light be on?

[vickson420]

Vicky, with all do respect, your post shows your inexperience. How many monitors do you own? How many have you successfully breed? The point is, you don't know the differences between a monitor (which is very generalized) and a beardie. Also, that you would think beardies a very smart lizard shows your inexperience with other lizards. Beardies are a dumb lizard. I would assume they are a prey lizard. I read a post (on a monitor forum) from an Australian Scientist. He posted a picture of a wild beardie and went on to say how calm wild dragons are. He said you can walk right up to them and photograph them (thats dumb). Lizards like Iguanas won't let you get 30 yards before taking off(thats smart). Also beardies are poor hunters. You have to remove the crickets because unless its right in his eye sight, he'll never eat it. Monitors actively forage. They find hiding roaches and crix and eat them (they are more highly evolved and posses a Jacobson's organ). I would go as far as to saying that my slow moving Chameleons are smarter than beardies and far more highly evolved.

Also the way you keep your dragons restricts behaviour. Your not seeing the same behaviours I am. Its why I keep them the way I do. Its more fun watching a beardie act like a beardie.

First I have worked/owned Savs before owning beardies and yes I did generalize Monitors because I didnt think I needed to specify on it to get my point across.What I find funny is your comparing a hunting ability and instinct to that of cognitive thinking which btw are 2 distinct portions of the lobe.Point in fact I wonder what type of beardies you actually have because mine will hunt room to room to find what they desire when free roaming and generally find them with ease not to mention distinguishing their prey items with ease.If you ever actually looked or tested their COGNITIVE abilities you would be suprised.I will not argue with you in regards to the hunting instinct nor will I argue with you about the calm demeanor.There is a reason for all of this and thats because they generally work smart not hard and allow the prey to come to them instead of expelling required energy going after them.Now that is SMART!

 

[GoFast]

Just to add to Vickison's post, I find it interesting that at one point you (thevirus) state:

I do have a thread made by a herpetologist about the benefits of not keeping an animal in a "dry" enclosure. The thread was made about monitors, but it pertains to all lizards

.
Later you then go on to start comparing the many differences of bearded dragons to monitors. So how could you defend your use of a thread that is specifically directed to monitor care for a bearded dragon when yourself argued so many differences between the two species? Also, just to note, you are the only one that I saw who decided that article was good for ALL reptiles. I, not once, saw any reference by the original author(Dr.Sweet) that it was acceptable for any other breed other than monitors.

 

[TheVirus]

Gofast,

I compared intelligence, hunting ability, and instinct (flight or fight), not the general husbandry (what to use and what to put in it). Savs come from the same environment type as beardies, therefore would require the same type of environment. The enclosures would be similar (except for size). Temps, humidity, hides, substrate. The real difference in general husbandry comes in diet.

The thread I posted applies to all lizards.You lack the understanding of general husbandry. You lack the understanding of what makes species different and what makes them the same. Lizards are dependent on environment, therefore any diurnal lizard that comes from the same climate classification is going to have very similar general husbandry. Whether its beardies, Savs, Uros, Gilas, etc...

 

[vickson420]

Similar does not equal the same and thats the point.There are more things then environment that should be considered in regards to a specific species.General care yes diurnal means the need heat and sun that is correct it does not however mean they need the SAME heat and sun nor does it mean they need the same diet,humidity,etc.That would be like me saying I dont need humidity in a monitor's enclosure I will just give him a bath well that just wont work will it? Bottom line is if you find something that works thats great BUT dont bring me data about one animal as proof that it works instead bring me data on the animal in question.

 

[GoFast]

Gofast,

I compared intelligence, hunting ability, and instinct (flight or fight), not the general husbandry (what to use and what to put in it). Savs come from the same environment type as beardies, therefore would require the same type of environment. The enclosures would be similar (except for size). Temps, humidity, hides, substrate. The real difference in general husbandry comes in diet.

The thread I posted applies to all lizards.You lack the understanding of general husbandry. You lack the understanding of what makes species different and what makes them the same. Lizards are dependent on environment, therefore any diurnal lizard that comes from the same climate classification is going to have very similar general husbandry. Whether its beardies, Savs, Uros, Gilas, etc...

Interesting. I suppose that I did not realize that Savs typical countries of origin like Ghana, Kenya, Togo and Tanzania had the same environment as Australia, the country of origin for bearded dragons. I suppose that my ignorance on that fact and your statement would make me wonder; if the environments are so much alike, then why do you not find bearded dragons in places like Ghana, Kenya, Togo and Tanzania or why do you not find savs in Australia? I would assume that if the environments were so similar that both species would be found in all of those places.

 

[TheVirus]

Hey Vicky,

Thats why I said general husbandry. There are differences. But what to put them in, what type of substrate do they deem usable, temps, humidity, are all the similar.

Its funny you what you said about savs and baths. Up until Monitor husbandry evolved, thats exactly how you would take care of them. Just like people keep beardies now. Sav care was beardie care Savs are just not as hardy as beardies. One reason is that they are wild caught. The other reason is nesting. Did you ever stop and think "why" beardies are so easy to breed? I believe its because they have single season incubation times. What I mean is, the lay in the spring and hatch in the spring. Or they lay in late spring and hatch in summer. Monitors (generalized) have long incubation times. They lay in the spring and hatch the following spring. Monitors nest have to be perfect (at least close) beardies will dump anywhere. Like I said, beardies are sooo easy.

Lets also think of the "why" Monitor husbandry has evolved so much in the last 16 years, yet beardies hasn't. I believe its because of the ease of beardies. They don't require you to think. They're too easy for their own good. That and the level of the keepers who typically buy and post about beardies.

Monitors are really expensive (with the exception of savs and nile). The initial cost of the monitor(some in the thousands), the enclosures you'll have to build, the electric bill on such a large enclosure, and the feeding bill. Also a lot of monitors are rare/hard to get. Unfortunately, if people spend $1500 on an animal they tend to take better care than if its $50. Unless your rich, you would have to be pretty passionate about lizards to spend that kind of money. I would bet most posters here just have a passing fancy (not you vicky).

The main reason Monitor husbandry has evolved so much is the type of person thats passionate about them. Its usually long term keepers or breeders of other reptiles (experienced adults) and Scientists. How many posters here have degrees in biology and study reptiles as a profession. Now ask the same question at varanus.nl.

I love lizards. I'm passionate about them. The beauty of me keeping monitors is it made me ask "why". Why did the husbandry change so much and "why" does it work. Once you learn the "why" you'll see how it can be applied to all reptiles.

 

[vickson420]

Yes I understand the fairly recent changes in Monitors and by recent I mean big picture in time but even before that I didnt bathe as it was obvious it didnt work.Thats not the case with BD.I do agree there is a very large number of first time herp owners that start with BD but thats my point and I think that is a big reason why our discussions become so heated.When you post your care methods your not specific you generalize and say 130F temp,humid tank,etc.Can you see how this could go horribly awry?Be specific VERY specific and be very concious that many do not realize that you mean a basking temp the diameter of a quarter is 120F and the rest is 110,etc.I still dont agree with alot of your methods because you never give me specifics and because of what I have seen with my own animals but if you would only start a clear thread with a long term group study I would be interested.There are some things that are viable I just dont believe in how you apply them.As for beardies you are correct they are too sturdy for their own good but with that said thats all the more reason I believe that we should focus specifically on them and not other species when orginizing their best form of care.Look best case scenario is to creat a multi-climate environment for them so they can choose where they want to be but that isnt viable for most and we need to remember that.

BTW:You ever call them goldfish again and we will definately have issues :wink: J/K

 

[dolcedragon]

That and the level of the keepers who typically buy and post about beardies.
I would bet most posters here just have a passing fancy (not you vicky).
How many posters here have degrees in biology and study reptiles as a profession..

One of the reasons I love this site so much is that it does not tolerate attacks on others. I'm all for a good friendly argument, but those comments are offensive to me and probably other members so in an attempt to keep peace I would ask that this conversation ends. It is way off the OPs topic anyhow.

 

[vickson420]

Agreed points have been made and we have veered way off topic so lets find our way back now :wink:

 

[TheVirus]

Dolcedragons,

Its not offensive at all and definitely not an attack. Its the truth. But your right, its off topic.

To the OP, the only thing I'm pushing for is for you to think independently. Don't believe everything you read, and question everything. The problem is you have to have a soild understanding of beardie behaviour first. This can't be learned on forums. Care sheets are a good starting point, but should never be the "be all end all" in reptile husbandry. When you learn to listen to your animal, you'll learn that it has all the answers. It just takes time. Good luck!

 

[GoFast]

Dolcedragons,

Its not offensive at all and definitely not an attack. Its the truth. But your right, its off topic.

To the OP, the only thing I'm pushing for is for you to think independently. Don't believe everything you read, and question everything. The problem is you have to have a soild understanding of beardie behaviour first. This can't be learned on forums. Care sheets are a good starting point, but should never be the "be all end all" in reptile husbandry. When you learn to listen to your animal, you'll learn that it has all the answers. It just takes time. Good luck!

Well thank you for your concern here but I do not think that I need to be told to "think for myself" As a matter of fact, the whole point of this thread was because of somebody telling people seemingly incorrect information. To take that a step further, my, as you put it, "not thinking for myself" is exactly what lead me to questioning all of your questionable at best theories and advice in more than one thread.

So, I suppose that I will now give you some advise. Do not assume any persons level of understanding and call them ignorant or unable to think for themselves simply because they think differently than you.

:wink:

 

[TheVirus]

Gofast,

You can go to any beardie forum and find that the answers to questions are always the same. Give yourself a couple years and you won't even have to open a thread to know what the masses think(there are few exceptions). You read something on a website and came here and posted rather than thinking independently. If you thought independently about the "why" you wouldn't have needed to post because you would of had your answer.

As to my "theories". You are a beginner. Everything is theory to you. You don't know if anything works because you haven't applied it long enough to get success. As far as my success goes I guess it breaks down to two questions. What is sucess? And I'm successful compared to whom?

Success, to me, is allowing for instinctual/natural behaviours, allowing for all basic life events, having mentally and physically healthy charges that live long lives.

My success compared to others. That depends who the other is. Compared to the Dachius (with beardies) they're more successful, as they have hatched more, and bred more generations. Compared to you, I'm very successful.

 

[GoFast]

TheVirus,

I was not even going to respond but my argumentative side got the better of me. I am about to be very hypocritical here and say that you are a very presumptuous individual and it is very hard to have any sort of relevant debate with you unless you feel that the other party is as "successful" as you. I will give you the fact that you may have read more and have had more bearded dragon and general reptile experience but what I won't concede to is a person like you telling a person like me that I am too inexperienced to even have a debate with. The fact that you decided to use the approach of saying that I don't know enough for you instead of actually answering my questions and arguments sheds a glimpse of the real you. It is even more startling to me, and I think that it should be to you, that with all of my ignorance, I was still able to spot the questionable theories of yours in your statements and advise. Do not take what I said the wrong way. You have obviously looked at a lot research and you seem to know your stuff but, I think that much of your research that was done was done poorly. You failed to ask the "why's" that you so adamantly tell unsuccessful people like myself to ask. You failed to think for yourself and really look at the articles that you use as your back up to your theories and ideas. Have you ever asked yourself why Dr. Sweet mentioned only monitors in that article with regards to care? Did ever ask your self, if the environments are so much alike, as you claim, then why do you not find bearded dragons in places like Ghana, Kenya, Togo and Tanzania or why do you not find savs in Australia? It seems to me that you read a couple articles over the years and made your assumptions just like the rest of us. The difference is that your reading lead to some slightly more radical environmental habitats. So, in closing, before you point your finger from that almighty chair that you sit on for whatever reason just remember that somebody always knows more and rather than taking the cheap shot, answer the question and perhaps people would be more willing to listen to you.

 

[ronni1221]

Even thought this is an "Off topic" topic, I'm not quite sure it will end up over there.

We shouldn't necessarily believe everything we read or hear, unless that information comes from a reptile (and/or bearded dragon) expert/vet. I believe the members, especially those seasoned members, on this site strive to provide the best husbandry possible for their bearded dragons, and it is for that reason that I seek their advice.

Now, that said, I've surfaced two articles from two reputable and peer-reviewed publications. I'd like to elaborate and provide documented resources as a response to some of the comments made during this thread.

The first is "Two Common Disorders of Captive Bearded Dragons (Pogona Vitticeps): Nutritional Secondary Hyperparathyroidism and Constipation" by Kevin Wright, DVM. Published in Journal of Exotic Pet Medicine, vol. 17, no.4, October 2008, pages 267-272.
The article does not specify the recommended time lights should be left on and off. However, he does point out constipation (caused by dehydration) as one of the most common ailments in pet bearded dragons. He does not mention basking lights as a cause of dehydration, or to limit basking time. Instead, he points out that constipation/dehydration is cause by insufficient water intake (obviously) through other husbandry practices. Providing vegetation to eat, spray-misting the dragon or side of the tank, and lukewarm baths are recommended to improve hydration.

The Second article is "Husbandry and Veterinary Aspects of the Bearded Dragon in Australia" by Michael James Cannon, BVSc, MACVSc. Published in Avian and Exotic Pet Medicine, vol. 12, no.4, October 2003: pages 205-214.
This article stresses the importance of different Pogona species and their separate environment adaptations and needs. It states that bearded dragons will assume different positions in relation to the light/heat source to regulate their body temperatures. They will lay parallel to the rays to soak heat, and will stand perpendicular to the light to minimize heat intake. They may also seek shade to reduce heat intake. "For the average bearded dragons the [preferred body temperature] PBT is 35 [degrees Celsius]." Cannon suggests that the range of temperatures provided for the dragons range from 35 to 40 degrees Celsius. He also suggests to provide that heat through a single light/heat source at one end of the cage.

Now, all that being said (feel free to roll your eyes :roll, I believe most of the bearded dragon owners on this site attempt to provide conditions and environment which most closely replicates their natural environment, eliminating proponents of that natural environment which may cause harm to their dragons. For many if not most of the owners on this site, that means leaving basking lights on for regular day/night intervals to simulate a regular day/night cycle. We really don't know the full practices of bloodbankdragons, and if we want to know how they came to that conclusion and their sources, we should ask them directly instead of either taking it as true, or presupposing the reasons as to why.

The main concerns of bloodbankdragons's practices to those who responded to this thread are if they are providing sufficient UVB/UVA exposure, and if they are keeping the tanks warm enough (35-40 celsius) during the day. :!: WARNING: MY OPINION AND EDUCATED GUESS MAY FOLLOW :!: It seems to me that heat and dehydration go hand in hand. If the breeder is only leaving lights on for 6 hours a day, they must be heating the tank in an alternative manner. If the tank is still being heated to the optimum temperatures, then the dragons will continue to become dehydrated, regardless of whether the light is on or not.

 

[Menolly]

That and the level of the keepers who typically buy and post about beardies.
I would bet most posters here just have a passing fancy (not you vicky).
How many posters here have degrees in biology and study reptiles as a profession..

As a person on this site, I was offended by that. You have no Idea who or what we are. Seriously, have you taken the time to read any of the blogs on here? Most of us a seriously crazy...I mean look at what we do for our dragons...You have no idea. I agree with the other posters you are to quick to make assumptions and jump to conclusions. By doing that you make way to many generalizations, that probably shorten your view on most things no matter how many times you ask the word why? You make ask it, but you don't take to heart someone elses reply.

Success you mentioned....so what...you have a bunch of beardies from different generations...so what...success to me is making sure my that my beardie dragon is happy, healthy, and lives a good long life with plenty of love. That's success to me and to everyone on here.

Oh...sorry for jacking your thread Gofast...I though you put in some very good points.

Vickson as usual ---> :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy: