Help 3 month old not eating and falling

[Greene]

It is getting slightly easier to feed him the critical care. We just finished day 4 of it. I know he hates the process and really doesn't like the syringe in his mouth, but it is getting slightly easier. His beard does get very dark during the feedings. I am the bad guy and have my daughter do the nice things to him to try to decrease his stress. He is now not eating any bugs though. We still offer, but I assume he won't be interested in them for a while.

He still does not seem to have any strength. He rolls or slides down his perch often. I have placed things like wash cloths to soften his fall. I found him on his back a few minutes after his lights went off today. He seems to just lay around all day on his belly. Doesn't really even put his feet on the floor much.

Doc said it might be as much as 30 days before we see improvement. Trying to be patient. Thank you for your advise and listening.

 

[kingofnobbys]

It is getting slightly easier to feed him the critical care. We just finished day 4 of it. I know he hates the process and really doesn't like the syringe in his mouth, but it is getting slightly easier. His beard does get very dark during the feedings. I am the bad guy and have my daughter do the nice things to him to try to decrease his stress. He is now not eating any bugs though. We still offer, but I assume he won't be interested in them for a while.

He still does not seem to have any strength. He rolls or slides down his perch often. I have placed things like wash cloths to soften his fall. I found him on his back a few minutes after his lights went off today. He seems to just lay around all day on his belly. Doesn't really even put his feet on the floor much.

Doc said it might be as much as 30 days before we see improvement. Trying to be patient. Thank you for your advise and listening.

If he is unable to climb and hold an elevated perch, it needs to be removed , this means the basking and UVB sources need to lowered slightly to ensure proper temperatures and adequate UVA & UVB , if he doesn't need to climb, he can't slip / fall / roll off his elevated basking spots , I'd make the highest spot the top of his hide.

 

[Greene]

Doing the best I can with this to do what is safest and least stressful to him. Unfortunately for his we have cats. The cats are not allowed in his room, but accidents happen. So I cannot remove the screen or lower the light. I have him on the lowest perch I can with the highest lamp the balast is rated for. I have removed all straight down drops. The remaining is a ramp. I often place him in a tub on the perch so he can't fall at all, but it seems to stress him a bit. I could set the tub ( medium Tupperware bowl) more permanently. He should evetually get over the stress.

 

[Greene]

I feel I am seeing some improvement. He is alert and looking around and up. Still not eating bugs and he doesn't move his back legs at all (pooping 1-2xs a day). I hope this will come in time.

I am slightly concerned about calcium. He was never good about eating the dusted insects before he was sick. But now nothing is dusted. The vet said I didn't have to worry about calcium while he was on the Carnivore Care. Any thoughts? It is 45% protien, 32% fat, and between 1.4 and 1.8% calcium. I just don't want to cause a calcium deficiency while trying to help him.

 

[kingofnobbys]

Doing the best I can with this to do what is safest and least stressful to him. Unfortunately for his we have cats. The cats are not allowed in his room, but accidents happen. So I cannot remove the screen or lower the light.

<<<It is very easy - you can easily simply place a heavy piece of MDF or plywood overtop of the mesh lid , in fact since you have cats , I'd permanently remove and throw the mesh / screen lid away and replace it with a heavy hinged timber lid , anyone who is handy with DIYS carpentry can rig up a box frame to sit on the top the viv and onto which the solid timber lid's hinges can be fastened , the lights (basking globe and UVB tube can easily and permanently be attached under the new hinged lid
see this layout , is very simple and very basic - AND CAT PROOF !!

one or two of these boat Stretch loops & Buttons
http://www.bcf.com.au/Product/Blueline-Stretch-loop-Button-Pair/168698?menuFrom=571494
on the front of the lid will secure the lid and stop a determined skink from pushing the lid up enough to climb out .


Benefits:
1) cats can't get the lid open or get a claw under it or through it
2) the solid timber will hold heat in the viv ==> lower wattage basking / MVB globe will achieve same zone and basking temperature ==> lower power bills !
3) the solid timber lid will provide a solid platform from which to hang the basking globe & CHE (ceramic high temperature fixtures and safety cages) and the T8 or T5HO UVB tube and reflector hood
4) will promote a good thermal gradient rather than allowing all the heat created by the basking globe and CHE to escape (and pool at the ceiling of the room where the viv is housed).

The use of piano hinge which is the same length as the lid ensures the lid can't lip off or fall off .
The weight of a solid MDF or plywood lid and the stretchy rubber loops on the front of the lid will defeat a cat's attempts to get into the viv.
I have him on the lowest perch I can with the highest lamp the balast is rated for. I have removed all straight down drops. The remaining is a ramp. I often place him in a tub on the perch so he can't fall at all, but it seems to stress him a bit. I could set the tub ( medium Tupperware bowl) more permanently. He should evetually get over the stress.

 

[Greene]

I will consider this, thanks. But it will probably have to wait until warmer weather. Any thoughts on my calcium question. As you can see from my previous video, he used all his legs until we saw the vet. He just seemed very clumsy then. He even seemed a bit blind then too from the stupid uvb mistakes I made. He can definately see now. Now he doesn't eat insects at all (stress due to oxbow carnivore care, and that maybe he is full). He also doesn't move at all now. His back legs seem stiff. He does move his front legs and lift his head and look around. Do you think this is stress too, a calcium issue, weakness from being malnurished (carnivore care), or still a result of the uvb light?

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

How is your little one doing? That is very promising you are seeing some improvement. In cases
like these, it does take awhile for them to recover.
I think you should probably supplement some with calcium, even though he is on critical care.
He may not get enough of the supplemental food so it's best to get a couple of days of calcium
in there just to be sure he is getting enough.
Sometimes the neurological effects last for months. Hopefully it is just a neurological issue that
will self correct & not a calcium problem right now.

Let us know how he is doing.
Tracie

 

[Greene]

Not seeing too much change, but I can see he is putting his back legs down at times. And he is moving about a bit, but he is very slow. A new thing I have observed today is that when I finish feeding him, he backs up quickly when I put him down. He almost fell off my lap the first time and I cheered. I saw him use all of his legs and it was the most movement I have seen in 2 weeks. And then he returned to his imitation of a lump and gave me an evil stare. I have begun putting a couple of drops of flukers liquid calcium in his oxbow carnivore care.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

How is your baby doing?
That's great he is moving his back legs more now. Was he moving them before he went to
the vet then? I hope he wasn't injured at the vets.
Keep up with the assisted feeding, it seems to be helping hi out a lot.

Tracie

 

[Greene]

https://youtu.be/qRkaz3Wt1Jg
He is still not using his legs. If you look on one of my earlier posts, he did use them before the vet. I cannot see how the vet did anything to him. He was never out of my sight the whole time. He mostly checked his abdomine and jaw. He did not manipulate the legs as far as I can recall.

I don't really know what to do. I have removed the possibility of him falling. I am making him eat and making sure he gets calcium. I still think the feeding is stressing him, but he would not eat on his own. Right now all he does is pretty much sleep. He does sit looking up at the ceiling after I feed him. I would say the only improvement is that he actually walked today when i could see it. I am just trying to be patient.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

How is your dragon doing today?
Have you been able to get the UVB light a little closer to him yet, or not?
It does take time for their strength to come back in the back legs when they are suffering
from metabolic bone disease or calcium issues, in general.
Has he fallen recently or is he doing better with his balance?
Try to be patient, it does take time for them to make a recovery. Keep us posted on him.

Tracie

 

[EllenD]

I think that this is still the MBD at play, as it does take at least a few weeks, if not over a month of having them under strong UVB light for at least 13-14 hours a day for the MBD to start to reverse any of the physical damage it has already caused.

However, out of curiosity, have you been giving him a Reptile Grade Multivitamin since you got him? If so, which one and how many days a week is he getting it?

Bearded Dragons can also often suffer from a Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) Deficiency, and the symptoms of this deficiency mimic the symptoms of calcium deficiency and MBD almost exactly, with the only visible difference between the two sets of symptoms being that with the Vitamin B1 Deficiency they don't get the same "tremors" or "twitching" that they get with the calcium deficiency, because the calcium deficiency directly effects the nervous system and the nerve impulses, while the Vitamin B1 deficiency does not. I can't tell you how frustrating the Vitamin B1 Deficiency is for Dragon owners, because the symptoms are so similar that most vets and other experienced owners and breeders immediately assume it's a calcium deficiency/MBD and that's the only thing they treat for.

Your dragon definitely is suffering from a severe Calcium Deficiency and MBD, that's not a question due to the total lack of adequate UVB light, so we know that. But that doesn't mean that he isn't also suffering from a Vitamin B1 Deficiency at the same time, which would be remedied by giving him a B1 supplement in addition to his regular Reptile Multivitamin, which he should be getting 3 days a week anyway. Unfortunately he's far too small for a blood test to determine this, but it's not going to hurt him to try upping his Vitamin B1, or even just upping his Reptile Multivitamin to 4-5 days a week, assuming that you've been using one that includes Vitamin B1 (Thiamine).

Something else I was thinking about with your dragon's situation and how this all started with his lights being so close and using a coil bulb...Do you think that there is a possibility that he may not be able to see, that he's actually blind and that's why he keeps falling and moving oddly, pulling away and such? It wouldn't be the first time I've seen this either, I have seen many Reptiles in general, not just Bearded Dragons but all kinds of lizards and frogs as well (pretty much any reptile or amphibian that is kept under lighting) at the Reptile Rescue I have worked at for a long time that have come in totally blind, and this is almost always due to the lighting they were kept under instead of an injury to their eyes or head. Some of the symptoms your dragon is displaying, as well as some of his behavior are possibly indicative of him not being able to see, along with the total insecurity and "skittishness" that comes along with losing sight. Just a thought...

 

[Greene]

He is doing the same for now. We did change the lighting again. So originally we had a coil non-uvb light only light. This has been removed since Jan 29th. The heat lamp keeps his hot side between 89 and 93 and his cool side 79 to 85. He tends to always like the hot side. The basking is usually about 110. I had moved the ho t5 uvb to the top of the screen after Ellen suggested he was getting too much. I moved it back inside at the very front a couple of days ago due to his back legs. I am unable to redo the top due to logistics and that the terrarium is only 18 inches high. So what have done is get a very wide clear plastic container placed on boxes to get it to the correct height. Now he can bask without any risk of falling. It is wide enough that he can move to the coolside if he wants. When he gets better I plan to allow him his regular basking spots. With this setup the uvb is about 12 inches from where he lays.
As for the calcium and vitamins. We originally used rep-cal phosphorus free calcium with vit d and rep-cal herptivite with beta carotene. The store said to mix the 2 together daily which is what I did for the first 2 weeks. Then with research I started the calcium on his bugs 5 days a week and vitamins 2 days a week. But he did not get much in the way of calcium or vitamins as he wouldn't eat much of anything. The per the vets instruction we didn't give anything but the Carnivore Care. I thought that was odd. So I purchased the flukers liquid vitamin and calcium to add to the Carnivore Care. I have added the calcium everyday for the last 5 (and was actually adding a pinch of the rep-cals before I purchased the liquids), but I have not used the vitamins but 2xs a week. I have been using 2 to 3 drops so far.
He seems to be able to see now. When he bothers to open them. I asked the vet when we were there and he said he was definately not blind.
Honestly this "perfect pet" for a 10 yr old was such a lie. I read the forums daily to see what I am missing and even with a PhD in chemistry, I still can't seem to get everything right. Very frustrating. Any other suggestions? Do I have the vitamins and calcium correct?

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Since you are using the T5, you wont need to use D3 at all. The UVB light is strong enough
for helping him synthesize D3. Since he is having metabolic bone issues, I would recommend
using liquid calcium right now, 4-5 days weekly, as opposed to powdered calcium. It seems to
absorb better & more quickly. You can use the herptivite vitamins 1-2 times weekly, correct.
Only use just the liquid calcium but no powdered right now. They can get too much calcium
also which will give hard urates & can also mess up the calciumhosphorus balance too.
How is he doing today, are you still giving the critical care?

Tracie

 

[kingofnobbys]

He is doing the same for now. We did change the lighting again. So originally we had a coil non-uvb light only light. This has been removed since Jan 29th. The heat lamp keeps his hot side between 89 and 93 and his cool side 79 to 85. He tends to always like the hot side. The basking is usually about 110. I had moved the ho t5 uvb to the top of the screen after Ellen suggested he was getting too much. I moved it back inside at the very front a couple of days ago due to his back legs. I am unable to redo the top due to logistics and that the terrarium is only 18 inches high. So what have done is get a very wide clear plastic container placed on boxes to get it to the correct height. Now he can bask without any risk of falling. It is wide enough that he can move to the coolside if he wants. When he gets better I plan to allow him his regular basking spots. With this setup the uvb is about 12 inches from where he lays.
As for the calcium and vitamins. We originally used rep-cal phosphorus free calcium with vit d and rep-cal herptivite with beta carotene. The store said to mix the 2 together daily which is what I did for the first 2 weeks. Then with research I started the calcium on his bugs 5 days a week and vitamins 2 days a week. But he did not get much in the way of calcium or vitamins as he wouldn't eat much of anything. The per the vets instruction we didn't give anything but the Carnivore Care. I thought that was odd. So I purchased the flukers liquid vitamin and calcium to add to the Carnivore Care. I have added the calcium everyday for the last 5 (and was actually adding a pinch of the rep-cals before I purchased the liquids), but I have not used the vitamins but 2xs a week. I have been using 2 to 3 drops so far.
He seems to be able to see now. When he bothers to open them. I asked the vet when we were there and he said he was definately not blind.
Honestly this "perfect pet" for a 10 yr old was such a lie. I read the forums daily to see what I am missing and even with a PhD in chemistry, I still can't seem to get everything right.

<<< A bearded dragon, even a healthy one is definitely NOT a perfect pet for a 10yr old.
You are on steep learning curve , and having a sick dragon can be a challenge . You are not the last of the Mohicans.
Very frustrating. Any other suggestions? Do I have the vitamins and calcium correct?