Gravid female, eggs not developing - how long is safe to wait before surgery?

[Starlily]

Hi @AHBD ! So nice of you to check in on us, I appreciate that!

Lily was happily basking today on her perch as usual - though she’s been hanging out of direct heat a little more that she normally does (on the other side of her enclosure). That said, if I didn’t know there were developing follicles in my friend, I’d never know anything was going on. She did have diarrhea initially which prompted the initial visit but that passed 3 weeks ago. She does have more frequent, smaller stools but I assume she has less room inside to work with right now so it makes sense to me. They aren’t runny like they were before. Just smaller. That’s it. No other changes.

She’s our usual feisty, ravenous girl!!

I’ve rescheduled the surgery to March 21. I think if there is no change by then, I’d feel more confident to proceed than I do right now. The risk to wait seems pretty low. Even the vet seemed to think waiting up to a month would be fine when we saw her last week.

I have talked to Tracie, such a wonderful person! She talked a little about shelled vs unshelled eggs. Im almost sure the vet said that they were still unshelled but to be honest I lost my darn mind once we started discussing surgery. Is that something you can see looking at the X-ray? Are shelled vs developing follicles (unshelled) different looking from this perspective? While I would assume yes, but I don’t want to assume anything at this point.

Thanks again! I’ll continue to keep you posted. Maybe this thread can offer help to someone else at some point!

In meantime, I had a very sincere heart to heart with Lily today about making the right choice of reabsorption or laying. I told her we love her and couldn’t live without her glares every morning when we come say hi! I hope she’s on board and I hope for a happy ending - preferably one that doesn’t involve a scary surgery!

 

[AHBD]

O.K, waiting for a while seems to be a good idea, more time to see if the eggs develop and might even be laid. I don't think they would be shelled yet, they're still a little small. I'm glad you had the talk with Lily and I'm certain that she is pondering over the advice at this very moment. Tell her that it's either reabsorbing or laying them to make you happy and then she can have 1 extra bug for a couple of meals. And then straight back to the diet but don't tell her that I said that part.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I agree, the eggs have grown some. It is hard to know exactly what to
do. It looks like she is doing well right now & isn't black bearding.
She is in pre ovulatory phase so she isn't ready to lay. It is hard to tell
whether they have been shelled, but it is possible since they are being
seen on the x-rays so clearly. If they don't grow much more then they
may not be shelled so it's likely they will be reabsorbed.
Does the vet feel that she wont be able to lay them successfully?
I think with the updates here that she is basking & hanging out in the
warmer area of her tank, waiting would be a good idea to give her a
little more time.

Tracie

 

[Starlily]

Hello,

I agree, the eggs have grown some. It is hard to know exactly what to
do. It looks like she is doing well right now & isn't black bearding.
She is in pre ovulatory phase so she isn't ready to lay. It is hard to tell
whether they have been shelled, but it is possible since they are being
seen on the x-rays so clearly. If they don't grow much more then they
may not be shelled so it's likely they will be reabsorbed.
Does the vet feel that she wont be able to lay them successfully?
I think with the updates here that she is basking & hanging out in the
warmer area of her tank, waiting would be a good idea to give her a
little more time.

Tracie

Hi Tracie! Just wanted to take a moment to answer your questions just in case it changes your opinion/recommendation!

The vet didn’t say anything to me about Lily being capable to lay (or not). The focus was simply that she (the vet) expected the eggs should have been laid or absorbed by now (5 weeks after the initial X-ray - likely 8ish weeks total). She said it was highly unlikely that Lily would reabsorb at this point and said she’s only seen that happen once. Surgery is the only option being offered right now.

You’d asked me about oxytocin in email and I’d forgotten to respond to that question: The vet did not bring oxytocin up. Is that something I should consider calling and asking about?

 

[AHBD]

I know Tracie will answer as well but the Oxytocin is usually only used once the eggs are in the oviduct in a ready position to be laid but for some reason the dragon can't or won't lay them. So they are not at that stage.
I think it's still possible that these will develop and she will lay these though. Have another xray in 10 -14 days to see what they look like then.

 

[Starlily]

That is excellent advice! Thank you!

 

[AHBD]

Just wondering how Lily is doing, any change ? Hope all is well.

 

[Starlily]

Hi @AHBD !

Lily is unchanged as of this moment (still feisty as ever - eating, pooping, basking as normal!). Her surgery date is next Thursday! I definitely plan to update at that time whether the eggs ended up absorbing or we had to move forward. Fingers crossed! For now I’ve continued these heart to heart conversations with her each day - for which my family finds highly amusing!

 

[AHBD]

Tell her that I said hey and keep up the EPB schedule ! [ Eat, poop, bask ]

 

[Morri]

Hi @AHBD !

Lily is unchanged as of this moment (still feisty as ever - eating, pooping, basking as normal!). Her surgery date is next Thursday! I definitely plan to update at that time whether the eggs ended up absorbing or we had to move forward. Fingers crossed! For now I’ve continued these heart to heart conversations with her each day - for which my family finds highly amusing!

Keeping my fingers crossed that she takes your advice!
I know surgery can be super stressful, I have just been through this follicle ordeal with Zoom and was an absolute nervous wreck. I can’t thank Tracie and AHBD enough for their care and advice. They allowed me to retain some sanity.
Our situation was a bit different as in a very short time she produced an insane amount of follicles that never had the space to develop, but clustered and started pressing on her organs, so waiting wasn’t an option.
She pulled through the surgery like a champ though and was released home the same day. After a few days of being away with the fairies on painkillers she was back to herself!
I am not saying „don’t stress about the surgery” if it comes to this as I know that’s not really an option, but I hope reading about many positive outcomes mentioned on this forum and having peer support here can take the edge off a bit, like it did for me. Keeping my fingers crossed for you all and I shall be popping back in for updates

 

[Starlily]

Thanks so much for sharing your story @Morri ! I’m really glad to hear that your friend pulled through! I hope that should surgery be the end result for our Lily, we share a similar story next week!

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

That is correct, the oxytocin can only be used in post ovulatory phases in which the eggs have dropped
& are shelled & ready to be laid. If she isn't in that phase yet it isn't safe to use. It sounds like it is very
possible she will reabsorb them if they haven't been shelled yet. It does look like they did get a bit larger
to me, looking at the x-rays.
How is she doing?

Tracie

 

[Starlily]

@Drache613 Hi Tracie! Nice to hear from you!

Lily is still feeling well from my observation. She’s alert, basking, eating the same as always and pooping almost completely normal again.

Our scheduled surgery is this Thursday at 9am. At that point Lily will have been growing the follicles for about 10 weeks. Can I ask you in your vast experience how long you’ve heard of an otherwise healthy dragon living with follicle growth with no concern? Regardless of how she is doing should it be time to proceed on Thursday if the follicles are still there and haven’t changed much?

 

[Mizjackson9]

View attachment 87862

That's close to what my girls x-ray looked like. My girl was really sick and if I didn't have a camera that recorded when they're was movement, she wouldn't be with me today. X-ray was taken 11 days before surgery. Unfortunately my girl has fallen a little ill, again, she's accumulating abdominal fluid. She's stable and eating so I'm just watching her closely for now.

 

[AHBD]

Just checking in , is the surgery today ? How is she doing ? I hope to hear good news and maybe see a jar of big follicles. I wondered if they would even have possibly become shelled during this time.