Gravid female, eggs not developing - how long is safe to wait before surgery?

[Starlily]

The title says it all. I have an 18 month old female who has eggs which don’t appear to be developing. We took her to the vet 5 weeks ago with diarrhea and an X-ray confirmed developing follicles. Yesterday (5 weeks later) the vet said there had been no change and to schedule surgery.

My question to the more experienced is: how long is too long to wait? My daughter is terrified of something happening to her friend during surgery - but we understand the risk of rupture if we do nothing. I guess I’m hoping for a best case scenario of reabsorption but I’m not sure at what point that becomes unlikely vs rupture. Obviously waiting past the “safety period” isn’t an option and we do currently have the surgery scheduled for next Thursday - but in no way do I prefer it over nature taking its course by way of absorption. I hope that makes sense.

For those who will want to know our setup:

4x2x2

Arcadia UVB with readings of 3.5-5.5 depending on where she is on her perch.

Hottest heat point is 107 but she tends to sit around the 100 mark on her perch (with the uvb sitting about 4.0 ish). Arcadia deep heat projecter (which is on 24/7) and also heat lamp. These are monitored by herpstat but I do monitor this regularly regardless. For nights, we drop the DHP to 70.

Humidity levels are typically in the 30% range but we do live in the Pacific Northwest…

Diet of Dubia and greens (she loves raspberries too)! She is overweight but we are aware and working on it (but it’s another reason I’m wary of surgery since the vet said it would make the risk increase).

Calcium is given on bugs 3x a week but we were given a liquid supplement for egg development with a 28 day dosing. We stopped this last week.

Substrate is tile.

Any other questions please don’t hesitate. I’m not here expecting a miracle or advice which replaces the vet. I don’t doubt that our vet is qualified and good natured. It just wouldn’t feel right to me to not seek additional advice from those experienced with this sort of thing because our friend is important to us and we want the best outcome possible.

 

[xp29]

The title says it all. I have an 18 month old female who has eggs which don’t appear to be developing. We took her to the vet 5 weeks ago with diarrhea and an X-ray confirmed developing follicles. Yesterday (5 weeks later) the vet said there had been no change and to schedule surgery.

My question to the more experienced is: how long is too long to wait? My daughter is terrified of something happening to her friend during surgery - but we understand the risk of rupture if we do nothing. I guess I’m hoping for a best case scenario of reabsorption but I’m not sure at what point that becomes unlikely vs rupture. Obviously waiting past the “safety period” isn’t an option and we do currently have the surgery scheduled for next Thursday - but in no way do I prefer it over nature taking its course by way of absorption. I hope that makes sense.

For those who will want to know our setup:

4x2x2

Arcadia UVB with readings of 3.5-5.5 depending on where she is on her perch.

Hottest heat point is 107 but she tends to sit around the 100 mark on her perch (with the uvb sitting about 4.0 ish). Arcadia deep heat projecter (which is on 24/7) and also heat lamp. These are monitored by herpstat but I do monitor this regularly regardless. For nights, we drop the DHP to 70.

Humidity levels are typically in the 30% range but we do live in the Pacific Northwest…

Diet of Dubia and greens (she loves raspberries too)! She is overweight but we are aware and working on it (but it’s another reason I’m wary of surgery since the vet said it would make the risk increase).

Calcium is given on bugs 3x a week but we were given a liquid supplement for egg development with a 28 day dosing. We stopped this last week.

Substrate is tile.

Any other questions please don’t hesitate. I’m not here expecting a miracle or advice which replaces the vet. I don’t doubt that our vet is qualified and good natured. It just wouldn’t feel right to me to not seek additional advice from those experienced with this sort of thing because our friend is important to us and we want the best outcome possible.

@AHBD or @Drache613 would be the best to ask. Tracie (Drache613) is on late at night though.
Their gestation period is like 70 to 90 day though i think.

 

[AHBD]

Hi there, can you post the xrays showing the follicles ? I'm sorry you have such a weighty decision. My dragons have always laid successfully but I often read here that some vets recommend surgery. These surgeries for the most part are successful, although I've read at least twice where even the spayed dragons went on to develop more follicles.
I'm not sure how long you have to make your decision. Can you see how big the follicles are ?
Oh and once the follicles are there they can begin developing at any point during maturity and can lay the next clutch [ or more ] within 3 weeks of the first.

 

[Starlily]

@AHBD or @Drache613 would be the best to ask. Tracie (Drache613) is on late at night though.
Their gestation period is like 70 to 90 day though i think.

Thanks! I actually have contacted Tracie via email prior to the last vet appointment - she’s awesome! I didn’t want to over burden her though so I thought I’d ask people here since I know a lot of very knowledgeable beardie owners are here too! I’d say I’m over thinking things - but our girl is our family.

 

[Starlily]

@AHBD Hello! I somehow missed your message from the other day. I do not have the x-ray. It wasn’t offered to me (is that normal?). I could request it and post it here later if successful - I’ll call when they open. It definitely is a weighty decision. At this point it would be wonderful if she’d reabsorb them - though the vet said she’s only ever seen that happen once after the 5 week mark. Again, we won’t hesitate to proceed but definitely wanted second opinion(s) from experienced keepers before we pull the trigger on this. There is undeniable risk and in my opinion the better route is always going to be nature running its course - unless the vet is right and reabsorption will not occur to which point surgery it is.

We’re at 6 weeks today since we took her in the first time after she’d been presenting with diarrhea for 2 weeks - and then confirmation of no change to follicle development last week (after 5 weeks). My guess is we’re at 8-9 weeks at this point. The question is really how long is too long and is the vet right about reabsorption being near to impossible from here on out.

Thank you

 

[AHBD]

O.K, please do post the xrays ASAP, everything the vet has is to be shared with an owner if it's asked for.

 

[Starlily]

 

[Starlily]

View attachment 87862

@AHBD here there are. I think the one with the “r” in the frame is from the first visit but I’m going to double check on that.

 

[Starlily]

@AHBD here there are. I think the one with the “r” in the frame is from the first visit but I’m going to double check on that.

@Drache613 Hi Tracie! I’m tagging you over here even though we’ve had some email contact just to show you these X-rays! Thanks to both of you!

 

[AHBD]

I can see the very small follicles in the first pic , It does seem that they've definitely grown some though, almost doubled. I don't know if they can be reabsorbed or not or continue to develop for laying. See what Tracie says but if your vet feels that it's best it may be the right decision to remove them. She looks very heavy, huh ?

 

[Starlily]

I can see the very small follicles in the first pic , It does seem that they've definitely grown some though, almost doubled. I don't know if they can be reabsorbed or not or continue to develop for laying. See what Tracie says but if your vet feels that it's best it may be the right decision to remove them. She looks very heavy, huh ?

Thanks for your input. You certainly see more on that X-ray than I do - but that’s the experience I’m looking for and why I’m here!

Yes, Lily is a big girl @ 626 grams! We’re definitely aware that she needs to lose weight and I have slowly been lowering her dubia intake and upping her greens, much to her dismay.

 

[AHBD]

Oh yes you did mention her weight + diet, sorry I missed that.

But yes, if you look closely in the 2nd pic , all of the eggs mostly seen on the left look like small oval pills and you can barely see any on the right of her spine. In the second pic the eggs on the left side look rounder that the first pic and the ones on the right are now in view. So if you look closely, you see they've grown.

 

[Starlily]

I do see it now! Wow! Reminds me of one of those magic eye posters back in the day where the picture just suddenly seemed to appear! Thanks for the description, that helped me understand what on earth I was looking at!

I look forward to Tracie’s input! I guess the big question is if growth is too slow for what should be expected and what would be a safe amount of time to wait in hopes of natural resolution!

Thanks again AHBD!

- Luna

 

[AHBD]

You're welcome ! I feel for you because I'm not sure what I'd do myself, almost think I'd wait but I can see how you'd be afraid to make that decision.

 

[AHBD]

How is she doing ? Is she eating, lethargic, restless and are you going to have the surgery ? I sent Tracie a message in case she missed yours.