Gout?

[lissac67]

We just picked up Spike from the reptile shop that boards reptiles when we go on vacation. The same place we bought her when she was a baby. They trimmed her nails and talked to us a bit when we picked her up. They said her nails are curling a bit and are thickening, and this is a first sign of gout. She is a big girl, has impressive curves. But she is also big all over, head, tail as well. I have tried to cut down on her intake before, giving a lot of salad, but she never really loses much weight. They said she appears to have some German Giant in her perhaps, because of her overall larger size. Anyway, her legs did not appear really swollen to them at all. She does have curvy thighs, but the forearms, really are not big at all, nor are her feet or toes. I do think they know what they are talking about as they also take in rescue beardies. They have one now they said that was surrendered and has bad gout, can't move at all, is maintained on meds. It is a wonderful, caring store. But they scared me. They said she looks good, but that the nails are a first sign. I didn't ask then because I didn't research until I got home. Should I take her to the vet? I took her last year for a check up and they said she looked great. I have researched everything when it comes to her, she has the right lights, tank, temps, gets baths daily, greens daily according to the beautiful dragons site. Her staples for protein are phoenix worms, wax worms maybe once every other week, crickets couple times a month. She gets worms or protein maybe every other to every third day. She can be a bit lazy and due to a broken leg that never fully healed well, she does limp a bit. But she does get around and climbs a bit. But not less than she ever has, she has never really been a crazy climber...so it isn't as if she is worse, know what I mean? I can take her to the vet in a week or so, but now I am really worried. her nails have been curved a bit for the last year or so anyway. How much less protein should I give her? Cut out the wax worms totally, I imagine. Would dried be better for one feeding a week? The tiny meal worms? I know they are less nutritious, but she gets lots of greens and calcium on her salad every other day. She hates crickets. I can't convince her to eat more than one or two when I do offer. SHe refuses to hunt them at all. But again, she never did. She is 4. If it helps, I could take a picture of her legs and joints....I would just like to know if I should call the vet or if there is really any concern...We love her to pieces and I feel like we have taken such great care to take care of her. She does get more protein than they suggested, though....but maybe 1/3 of her diet....that is all.

 

[lissac67]

I will try to upload some images.

This one shows the one curved nail. Each front foot has one like that. The rest are just her legs and feet. They are curvy, but to me the ankles and feet, toes, don't look at all swollen....

 

[CooperDragon]

I don't see the lumps/swelling that I usually associate with gout which is good. You probably want to have her on a primarily veg diet and offer bugs every few days anyway. If you're concerned about the possibility of gout, you could ask your vet to do a blood test (only if they are experienced with drawing blood from a bearded dragon). That will help by showing levels of uric acid which may indicate gout if they are out of norms.

 

[lissac67]

I was digging around in the forums here and it seems like I certainly can feed a lot less protein than I am and she would be just fine. She is 4 years old, so not a young lady by any means. I just didn't think I even gave her much before though, even when she gets wax worms, she maybe gets 10 at a time, every couple of weeks. I guess I also don't see signs of gout from my researching. It has been a year since her check up anyway, so I may take her in next month regardless. the vet then said she could use to lose a bit, so we cut back to protein a couple of times a week and mostly veggies. She maybe dropped 10 grams, but not much. But she then said that Spike looked great, very healthy. I admit the last couple of months we got lazy with the crickets and did a few more wax worms than is likely good. But I can't imagine that would do anything bad in such a short period of time. I guess I am just confused. The only thing they commented on was her nails being thick and starting to curve.

 

[CooperDragon]

I'd replace the waxworms with a healthier treat such as silk worms or black soldier fly larvae. I use those as treats every few days along with dubia roaches. I only offer a main bug meal a couple of times per week though. Maybe once ever 4 days. A salad with some nice veges is the daily staple and it works well for an adult.

 

[lissac67]

Isn't the fly larva phoenix worms? That is her staple usually. She loves them and will eat 40 in a sitting. But I ration them usually, giving no more than 10 in a sitting. The wax worms are usually a treat. Maybe I will cut the protein back to every 4th day as you said. She is going to pout for a while, but she will live. She weights 754 grams right now, 22 inches long. She isn't super fat to me, but maybe she is more than she should be.

 

[CooperDragon]

Yes. I apologize, I missed that in the first post. They are much lower in fat so a healthier protein option. They also have a good amount of calcium. At 754g she can definitely hold off on the bugs for several days. The annual checkup is a good idea and I'd just ask the vet about the possibility of gout and see if a blood test is a good idea. Go with your vet's recommendations on that though.

 

[lissac67]

Thanks for helping me hash this out. I will take her off the bugs for now. Maybe for a week and gives loves of yummy greens. Then start back up with just a few of the worms every 4th day as you said. We go on vacation in 3 weeks, so I will take her in when we get back. Tonight when we got home she ate a little and climbed her log (which she does struggle to climb) almost to prove to me she isn't overweight and no way should I take away her worms. She was giving me this look at the store too when we were talking about it...I expect hiding in her log in a few days, she tends to pout when I take away the phoenix worms.

 

[CooperDragon]

I don't blame her =). Try some yummy veges like chopped up squash and green beans. Maybe some bell peppers. Shredded up collard or turnip greens maybe. Those are favorites of my guy's.

 

[lissac67]

She LOVES green beans. So she gets those often. green beans and butternut squash are favs. She is not a fan of the darker cooking greens like collard or dandelion greens. She loves romaine, but that isn't the best. I do offer it to her as filler and sneak in a few collard greens with them once in a while. Tonight she had green beans, squash and apples with a tiny bit of romaine sprinkled on top. I try to rotate squash types, she gets cucumbers, peppers, snap peas, tomatoes as garnish, I give her treats too of fruits once in a while. She hates calcium powder so I spray on the calcium liquid sold on Bug de lite. She is spoiled, but yes, she won't miss a few days of bugs. lol They usually say boarding may cause them to lose a bit...nope, not her. She loves her food.

 

[CooperDragon]

That all sounds good to me =)

 

[lissac67]

Good to hear. Yes, I think she is well taken care of. That is why it is a bit confusing. But I will push veggies even more!

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

She sounds so adorable & about the same size as our male is & he is 8. He is large too but muscular.
He gets about 40-50 estimated insects weekly, so you could probably get by with 30 or so feeders weekly along with greens, etc. Extra greens & veggies will help to slim her down a bit.
Does she get very much exercise out of her tank?
I agree, a blood test would be the best way to measure kidney function, if he feels it is needed. Do you have a full body picture of her we could see just to assess her overall body condition?
Based on the pictures, her feet, toes, hands & fingers don't appear swollen. You could proactively start her on black cherry to help her kidneys out in case they could be having any trouble.
I am glad to hear the liquid calcium works out well for her. How much do you give her & how often?


Tracie

 

[lissac67]

Hi Tracie,

She is quite the sweetie. She can be a stinker, though. I weighed her yesterday as it had been a while. She is right around 28 ounces, or close to 800 grams. I use a postal scale, so there is a possibility of a slight bit of error, but not that much. So I am concerned for her. She is round. I will post a picture when she wakes up. She has been sleeping in this week. lol She did break her leg a couple of years ago when she jumped off the back of a chair on to the hard wood floor (I had no idea she was up there, she climbed up and thought she could fly I guess)> I heard a thud and figured it out when I saw her on the floor holding her leg up. She healed, but has a limp. I think with the belly it does make climbing hard for her. She is take out of her cage daily and I let her run around, and sit in the window sill (with a big ottoman and pillows under in case she decides to be super lizard again). She loves being out, but she tends to find a corner and just go to sleep. I do take her outside on her leash, but she spends a lot of time bearding the airplanes and sitting there. I also spray for pests so I don't want her in the grass much. I don't let her eat the grass, of course. I am trying to think of other info that may be helpful. Her set up is perfect, breeder tank, 40 gallon. Basking spot in large hammock. temps 80-110 from cool to warm side. UVB Reptisun 10, order a new one every 6 months. One thing I struggle with is she actually doesn't eat more than 30 -40 insects a week already, (phoenix worms). When I am thinking of what to cut down, I am literally knit picking at the wax worms. She also hasn't been eating a ton lately. I am so busy this week I got a bag of spring greens and am giving her that, plus apple, shredded carrots, snap peas, green beans, she decided she loves garbonzo beans so I cut up a couple on top of her salad. I haven't given any feeders for 3 days now. She really refuses to eat crickets, always has. If I put in a work or two in the plastic tub for her, she will eventually eat a couple. But they sit on her nose and make fun of her while she looks dejected. Has done this since she was a baby. I have been trying to make her swim in the deeper sink during her baths. She will give it one good go, then puffs up and floats like she is dead, the stinker. I don't leave her alone and I pick her up to make her breath, then try again, rinse and repeat. So we do try to exercise her, but she isn't as willing participant all the time. lol The calcium luquid, I used to give in a dropper, maybe 5 or 6 drops but she fought me so hard. So I found a little spray bottle and filled it, then sprayed on her salad and she loves it. I give a couple of good sprays, maybe equal to the drops. She refuses calcium powder, again, always has, on her food. She won't eat at all. She is a picky girl. I think that is about all the info. I will take a picture when she wakes up. Thanks so much, Tracie. You are always so helpful.

 

[lissac67]

Here are a few pictures. She was not happy as she had just woken up. lol She wouldn't really climb around so most of these are resting the belly.

https://goo.gl/photos/6a62Thn1P4pfhNwA9

https://goo.gl/photos/iwLRNAR7z6ERycCF9

https://goo.gl/photos/dwuGtkKKqSY2tmpe6

https://goo.gl/photos/1G7N5KyPXssfY36y6

https://goo.gl/photos/q4MtkY2wQvzbt8aC7