Giving breeding advice

[spyder79]

I would like to state, that I am not trying to cause an argument. I just don't want members who know the answer to a question to be dissuaded from sharing their knowledge just because of the fear of being attacked. I remember the post to which you are referring. You are correct in saying that it was the wrong advice to give. However, I have known people who have been breeding for sometime to say that calcisand is the best thing for baby beardies. Would you say that since it came from an experienced breeder that I should follow that advice? I should hope not. Both of those questions are far from "highly specialized questions". Anyone who has spent anytime researching would know the answer to either one of those questions.

I'm sorry if I came off as being argumentative. That was not my intention. I have nothing but respect to the breeders out there who take the time to educate the rest of us. But since there are so few of those breeders out there, doesn't it make sense for the rest of us to help fill in the gaps?

Just to note if you had read my post instead of apparently jumping to your own conclusion you would know that what i posted is if you have no experience to speak of do not give advice
This post is not directed at people who do research to find the appropriate info and spread that info. This is people who talk out of their rear.

 

[SkitTer]

Just live and let live people.
Read my sig... just state it is your opinion and leave it there. No one in this world cares more about what is said than what affirms their opinion.

People have an innate need to be better than everyone else so they BASH others to prove it.
I promise I am smarter than the average bear, but, I don't feel the need to be arrogant about it.

Also realize that no one is perfect, the wealth of knowledge breeders know is vast. Sometimes, people can't be diligent all the time. Things may slip your mind when answering a post. That is why you can edit the post or return to state the correct information later in the discussion. If someone offers the wrong advice, just post the right advice. Let the person requesting the information, judge for themselves who to believe. If you are soooo apparently correct and better, it will come off that way.

 

[spyder79]

i have never given the impression nor ever stated i was better than anyone and if thats your impression so be it. But dont wine about my opinion that people whom have no knowledge of something should not give advice on it. at the end of the day its still true, you should not advise someope on a topic when you dont know the first thing about it.

 

[SkitTer]

WHOA!

I am not trying to argue or upset you. My post was towards everyone. Just ignore what you don't like, the same way you do everyday in the normal world. I don't mean to insinuate that you were rude or arrogant, I'm just saying no one needs to be that way. Just be polite and state your facts/opinions.

 

[diamc]

This is the 2nd reminder to try to keep this thread calm. It's fine to voice your opinion but we don't want this thread to get heated, please think how others will perceive it before you post. We don't want to have to lock this, there is some real good info here.

 

[DragonMomSandy]

Brian,
You need to step back and take a breath dude. In part I would agree with you, in part I would disagree. I agree that someone who has just gotten into the hobby and barely knows how to care for a dragon should not be offering advice. For example, a newbie telling someone with hatchlings that they could force feed the weakest one by shoving a syringe in it's mouth and squirting food in "really fast"-since I have experience with assist feeding beardeds, I posted, recommending against force feeding this way and how to "assist feed" correctly. I whole heartedly agree that if they don't have a clue, haven't done any research on the subject at all and are barely able to meet the basic needs of their own dragon, they shouldn't be taking a shot in the dark and offering a "guess" as advice.

I disagree with you, however, in your assumption that someone lacking hands experience as a breeder has no knowledge of the process. There are many here, myself included, that have kept bearded dragons for many years, and have plans to start breeding in the future and have been researching it for a very long time. If I feel that I can help someone with what I've learned through my own research, I see no harm in sharing that info. However, if I don't know the answer, then I can certainly point that person in the direction of someone who does. No, I don't have hands on experience yet with breeding beardeds, I do however have experience with breeding Mountain Horned Dragons. Yes, these are two very different species, however there are many similarities as well as many differences. I have been researching breeding of beardeds for a very long time to make sure that I am ready before taking that step, as for me it is love of the species that drives me to do this. Along the way I have learned a lot about breeding from some really great breeders and a few things from experienced keepers who are not breeders because they have chosen not to take that step. And yes, I have offered advice to people who find themselves with a gravid female and no clue what to do next. A recent example of this is someone who has a gravid female that is housed with a male (the OP thought both to be female-still not a good idea- and didn't know how to sex them, which, although I am not breeding beardies yet, I certainly know how to do). I posted that the two should be separated and that the OP will need to get a lay box set up soon. I also told the OP to talk to one of the breeders here (Lance) to find out how to set up a lay box properly. I felt that telling them to do this was the appropriate answer and I referred them to someone with experience to help them get the job done. I see no harm in this, though you, it appears, might think that only a breeder should offer such info.

If you have no experience to speak of do not give breeding advice or care advice

You did however, amend this with a later post:

This post is not directed at people who do research to find the appropriate info and spread that info.

You also posted:

newbie breeders seem to be trying to give advice on topics that they have no hands on knowledge of. If you have never bred a dragon dont give advice on nutrient care for a gravid female.

I offered advice on calcium supplementation with gravid females, based on solid info. Although I have not bred beardeds yet, MHDs (which I am breeding) have much the same increased calcium/nutrient requirements. And, based on my own extensive research on breeding beardeds, liquid calcium has been used quite successfully. The fact that I don't care for "gut loading" products is my personal opinion based not only on my research, but having used some of these products for the feeders for both my beardeds and MHDs, and I wasn't impressed with them. I've found that feeders are much healthier when fed healthy foods. To be blunt and to the point, the member posting about the gut loading supplement seemed more interested in using the thread as a means to advertise a product he is pushing than anything else. Sorry, but my preferred method of gutloading feeders is by supplying them with healthy foods that not only benefit the feeders, but the dragons as well. And if you feel that my advice shouldn't have been posted on this thread, well, my knowledge of the nutritional needs of gravid females is far more extensive than you assume. And for whatever reason, you seem to have taken exception to it. Being an open forum, I can share my advice with the OP, for them to use or not as they see fit. Any advice I post in regards to breeding is based on info from my own extensive research and never based on a "guess". If I post an answer that you feel is incorrect, by all means, add your 2 cents, but do it politely. If you feel I have incorrect info in my research, then please, offer what you feel is the correct info, I am always learning and welcome all good, solid info when it's presented appropriately.

I think that each person that posts a question and receives answers has to weigh those answers and decide what is going to be the best advice and what will work for them, whether it's in regards to breeding or what feeders to use. Because the forum is open for any and all to post, there will always be posts that go against what you or someone else believes to be correct. The best thing that you can do is to try to post correct info, based on your experience and knowledge, in a helpful and polite manner. Whether the OP chooses to accept your advice or not is up to them. I can tell you that at times you do come across harsh, judgemental, even arrogant-like yours is the only correct info or way to do something. At other times, you have gone out of your way to help an OP. I have learned a few things from you in the past, but there are times that I felt your responses to be harsh-to either myself or others-and I for one am hesitant to ask for any advice from you. I have gotten to know some really good breeders that I know I can trust to give me honest answers and solid info, without being harsh, and I prefer to pose my questions to them. You posted that those who had a problem with your (or any breeders) posts should send a PM to you or the other breeder, maybe that advice should be reversed. If you see a newbie, or anyone else, posting something that you feel is completely incorrect, maybe you should send a PM to them and politely explain what they posted that was incorrect, and offer them what you feel is correct info. And then make a post with correct info to help the OP. Ranting about it isn't really going to help, it only made you appear judgmental, harsh and arrogant.

This is my opinion, take it as you choose. There is no intention here of starting an argument, so please do not assume that it is.

 

[ChellyBeans]

To all,

This is just my opinion on the matter. I mean no offense to the previous posters, but I think that everyone is digging a little too deep into this.

I think what he is trying to say is that it gets tiresome when people mate dragons ignorantly thinking that it will be just as simple as breeding dogs. Then you end up with beardies that get terrible care and so forth. Then there are those people who just put boys and girls together to make babies are in here telling other people that it is okay to breed their female continuously without knowing the harm that it does to her body and how many clutches she can lay from one mating session.

It is a little upsetting that people breed their dragons and have NO CLUE what to do next, so you have people in here pleading for help because they got into this hobby prematurely. The poor faces on craigslist are enough to crush me and knowing that they come from people doing things without reading a THING is sad enough. Much less offering advice from what "makes sense" to them. This can easily create a snowball effect that can result in an undeserving dead beardie(s).

Having a help guide of some sort may be something that the breeders would like to get together to make would be something useful to those interested. Perhaps compiling information together would at least help the laziest people learn something useful. I don't know how to remedy this situation, but I do agree that people with no clue that just paired a male and a female together sharing breeder info is terribly harmful as well as accepting advice from a child barely in middle school.

 

[DragonMomSandy]

Chelly

There's no disputing that we all have seen too many make the "help me" posts when they have gotten in over their heads, and that it is frustrating. I also agree, that those brand new to the hobby, having done no research and having no experience whatsover should not be blindly offering advice. But those who are experienced keepers (whether they are breeders or not), who have done there research should be sharing that knowledge to benefit all.

I do however, take exception in the manner in which Brian posted his rant.
His first post, first statement:

If you have no experience to speak of do not give breeding advice or care advice

and a subsequent post:

If you have never bred a dragon dont give advice on nutrient care for a gravid female.

Pretty broad statements that included many of us who are experienced keepers, but not yet breeders, who are extensively researching the breeding process. Quite the rant from someone who has been breeding since Apr/May of '09. Granted, any an all experience is valuable, but so is doing the research before hand. Sharing what we've learned is a big part of helping each other as keepers. I have no doubt that Brian has done his research. I have no doubt that Brian has quite a bit of knowledge he can share. I have no doubt that his first year of breeding is valuable experience. But, all to often I have seen him harshly bash posters, and that is no way to help.

Sorry, I stand by my opinion and I hope that I have not offended you Chelly.

 

[spyder79]

I almost shutter to post in here since im apparently such a mean nasty person that people dont like on here but i have to respond.

Sandy to the post you seem to be so stuck on about not giving advice on after care for a female that has laid a clutch. I stand by it. For reasons such as one of the things you say you suggest, the use of liquid calcium. it is extremely easy to overdose on liquid calcium which can cause joint inflamation cause the unused and un-needed calcium will deposit itself around the joints. You may tell member umpty squat to use liquid calcium and they say ok. Then that person gives the amount suggested of liquid calcium 1 time a day 5 days a week for ex amount of weeks why cause you didnt tell them otherwise. With liquid calcium it should only be used 2 times a week because of how much more of it is used/stored. Same with liquid based vitamins like the liquid vitamin B you can purchase from beautiful dragons. Without knowing what you are doing you can cause severe liver and kidney failure due to overuse. Thats one reason i say dont give after care advice if you dont know what you are talking about.

Now sandy in your case you seem to know what you are talking about and have researched and learned the knowledge from these animals. But do you think that member x should do a search on here to answer a post by member y (both members having no real world experience with these animals) on aftercare, see a post that says give extra calcium and another post that says use liquid calcium, then put these two posts together and tell member y to use extra liquid calcium. now member y infers ok extra well i normally dust 1 feeding so with the liquid guess i need to give 2 doses a day. no one catches this post in a timely manner then the person comes back with a sick dragon due to overdosing it. This could have been prevented by member x merely bumping member y's post with a reply of "im not sure exactly what you need but im bumping you to the top in hopes of you finding help". How easy is that?

Anyway. Im officially done with my own post since this seems to suddenly be a i hate brian post. So whatever.
Later

Oh PS
Just cause i just started breeding beardies means nothing, i have been keeping and working around various reptiles since i was 5. bye now.

 

[ChellyBeans]

Of course not Sandy. You know that I always value your words no matter what they may be.

I agree about those statements being a little broad, but I can see where he is coming from. You can read about riding a bike until your head throbs, but that does not mean that you are gauranteed not to fall. I'm sure that he has done his research, but things didn't come to light until he actually did it. Therefore making his advice more "sincere" if you will.

He is, indeed, harsh with his written word, but I will boil it down to passion. I am certainly not protecting him. I have surely had my heated disputes with him a few times. In this situation, I feel that it would only be fair to put on his shoes and see it from his end.

Even I can do some "serious" research, but that doesn't make my advice bulletproof or even have a leg to stand on against someone that had actually participated in it sucessfully.

In the end, this is a forum where advice is given. Blindly answering questions because "you" accidentally mated your dragons is not setting someone up for success. Brian may have been a little bold, but I'll give him some room since he was probably a little heated from the whole situation.

 

[SkitTer]

Even I can do some "serious" research, but that doesn't make my advice bulletproof or even have a leg to stand on against someone that had actually participated in it sucessfully.

Just thought I'd add, even 40 years of breeding experience isn't bulletproof. I can't find two breeders that do things the same on every level. The ones who have done it for 2 years may do better about specifics than the old timer 30 years into his life's work. In 30 years, he may have learned that the lizard is resilient and will adapt and survive (within certain parameters, of course). He may have also learned a few tricks of the trade that make him more successful on a commercial level. Where as, the newbie dedicates himself to the project 100% and doesn't let anything slack. Thus, he may lose more money than the old timer.

 

[lacy_black]

I'd vote more for the word ~disgusted~ or ~frustrated~ which is pretty much the same way I feel anymore. I'd have to say it's redundant to get into a "Brian bashing" mode, so you don't like how he phrased it *shrugs* scratch where you're mad and get over it.

The whole point is, if you have little to no experience with keeping dragons healthy for at least a few (2 or more) years, done extensive research, Had a high hatch rate with healthy well taken care of hatchlings sold, then no you don't have the experience to be giving advice on such important subjects.I've watched, and read through many many posts, I for one can pick out easily the good breeders and the losers, it's simple to see who knows what they're doing if you just take your time to READ.

 

[spurlee01]

I can't help but wonder if some of this is aimed at me. Brian, my thing is are you really going to be there to answer every single post about breeding? I did tell a woman generically to "up the calcium". Should I have been more specific, yup, I should have. I was exhausted but felt bad for this woman who had recieved no help at all. Thing is, I have been told by 1 breeder, 1 moderator, and 2 vets to dose at 2x her normal level 4-5 times a week (liquid calcium) as long as her urates are fine. We tweaked that a touch (down to 4) because the urates looked odd. Anyway, I havn't ever "bred" dragons, but I'm learnin a heck of a lot about caring for a gravid female.

 

[spyder79]

Look everyone listen to me closely. Had this post been directed at any particular person i would have typed it as such. This was typed as a generic statement towards the current status of the ungodly amount of people on this site with no real world knowledge of bearded dragons giving advice be it on care of feeding. I am so tired of this. Im requesting this thread be locked. you people are far to sensative. It really amazes me. :|

 

[spurlee01]

WE are sensitive? Love it, considering your the one locking your thread because someone DARED express a different opinion :wink: