Fostering baby need advise.

[peachypink]

Hey all,

Its been quite a while since I've been on here but I now have a situation I could use some advise on. So, I have a friend who manages a local pet store. Last week they got a shipment of two baby Beardies. One of them didn't last the first night and the other was very lethargic and sickly looking. The supplier says they don't guarantee if the temps drop below 60 at night and didn't bother to put in a heat pack either. I am also working to help educate in hopes they can avoid this in the future too. This is a pet store with owners and a manager that actually care about doing the right thing.

Anyway, it is what it is and we are just trying to help the one that survived. She asked if I would take him and try and see if I can save him since I am the local "expert"(I use the term loosely). I have had a lot of experience with beardies and so I said I would give it a try but I didn't promise as there are sometimes that you can do everything and it still not go right.

So here is the deal and what I have done so far....

I took him on Thursday, the 26th.

She said he is going on 7 weeks and I weighed him at 3g. SO TINY!

Got him in a tank with a 10.0 18" tube and a 100w basking lamp. Temps are at 105 in the basking spot and about 75-80 on the cool side. I put him in a tub to eat so I can monitor what he is eating but...he only ate 2 pinheads on Friday and then I got him to eat 2 small wax worms on Saturday and nothing else on his own. I've seen him try and go for something but he gives up when he doesn't get it. I have put a heat lamp and his UVB on the tub and leave him for a bit to see if he will go for it but after an hour I'll put him back. Ive also been getting him to lick a little bit of soy yogurt and butternut squash babyfood(not mixed of course). I try at least 4-5 times a day and can get him to lick a little but not much. I have also been giving him soaks daily.

I want to get him to eat a little more from the syringe but he is so tiny I don't want to hurt his jaw. I've syringe fed before but on a much bigger beardie. I would like to try the crop needle but I'm not sure I could get one in time.

I did wonder if maybe my 10.0 tube was too old as I couldn't remember when I had replaced it and I had used it for my girl that had passed, so on Sunday I replaced it with a new one just to be safe.

Mostly he is sleeping a lot but has little bursts of energy when I take him out. I am suspecting parasites(which is why I am giving the yogurt) but he has yet to poo for me to take in a fecal.

From the looks of him and how lethargic he is I am also suspect that he was sick before the breeder shipped him and he knew he was sending a sick beardie. They got him Wednesday(overnight shipping) and when I got him on Thursday his back legs were already sunken with no fat or muscle tone to them at all with the little hip bone joints at the base of the tail pronounced.

Any other suggestions?

 

[AHBD]

Hi there, it's really nice of you to try + help this tiny creature. One quick thing to try is to get the crickets to slow down by shaking them up. Put them in a jar with a tiny pinch of calcium powder + shake them until they are weak + dizzy. Just do a few at a time so as not to waste them if the baby doesn't eat them. But some babies will go more for the slow moving crix, they see it as not having to exert themselves in their weak condition.

instead of a bath which may be stressful, just drip water on the snout, many babies drink that way. BTW, can you post pics of the baby [ don't disturb him though ] and also the set up ? Here's how to post pics :
https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploads/ Then use the XIMG to upload them

 

[peachypink]

I’ll see what I can do about some pics tomorrow. Ones that really show his condition.

He did eat a dubia this afternoon. Yay. I’ve already tried getting them dizzy but it doesn’t last long enough for him to get interested. I’ve put a dubia on its back so it wiggles but doesn’t run away and that worked tonight. I do get him to drink by putting water on his nose too. Just a tiny bit though. I’ll stop the bath for now.

He did get a little feisty yesterday and today when I was trying to feed with the syringe, which i was happy to see. Before I would barely get a response other than a little lick here and there. And from the first day I got him he spins around and tries to climb back up my hand whenever I try to put him down. I really hope I can get him to pull through.

 

[peachypink]

Here’s one pic for now at least. He’s about the size of my thumb from nose to vent.

 

[peachypink]

Also, any advise on opening his mouth to syringe feed him? He’s so tiny I’m afraid to hurt him. Like I said, I’ve done it with a much larger beardie, never one this small.

 

[AHBD]

Hi there, the baby doesn't look as bad as I thought it would and looks like it may weigh more than 3 grams, but at any rate his eating very little right now can be at least partly attributed to stress. Good that he's eaten a few bugs here + there, just keep offering them 2-4X a day. No crop needle for a tiny baby, very easy to seriously injure him. I wouldn't force feed yet, just give him time to settle in.

How large is the tank ? A weak baby is better off in a smaller tank that's easy to get around in + to find the food and doesn't need to be taken out to feed. Here's how I used to set up hatchlings....cardboard egg crate in some, small basking stick .
https://www.beardeddragon.org/media/30051/full

https://www.beardeddragon.org/media/29889/full

 

[kingofnobbys]

Hey all,

Its been quite a while since I've been on here but I now have a situation I could use some advise on. So, I have a friend who manages a local pet store. Last week they got a shipment of two baby Beardies. One of them didn't last the first night and the other was very lethargic and sickly looking. The supplier says they don't guarantee if the temps drop below 60 at night and didn't bother to put in a heat pack either. I am also working to help educate in hopes they can avoid this in the future too. This is a pet store with owners and a manager that actually care about doing the right thing.

Anyway, it is what it is and we are just trying to help the one that survived. She asked if I would take him and try and see if I can save him since I am the local "expert"(I use the term loosely). I have had a lot of experience with beardies and so I said I would give it a try but I didn't promise as there are sometimes that you can do everything and it still not go right.

So here is the deal and what I have done so far....

I took him on Thursday, the 26th.

She said he is going on 7 weeks and I weighed him at 3g. SO TINY!

>>>> 3g at 7 weeks old can't be right , smallest I've seen at that age was 6g , so I think you have a hatchling who is more likely at most 2 weeks old..


Got him in a tank with a 10.0 18" tube and a 100w basking lamp. Temps are at 105 in the basking spot and about 75-80 on the cool side. I put him in a tub to eat so I can monitor what he is eating but...he only ate 2 pinheads on Friday and then I got him to eat 2 small wax worms on Saturday and nothing else on his own. I've seen him try and go for something but he gives up when he doesn't get it. I have put a heat lamp and his UVB on the tub and leave him for a bit to see if he will go for it but after an hour I'll put him back. Ive also been getting him to lick a little bit of soy yogurt and butternut squash babyfood(not mixed of course). I try at least 4-5 times a day and can get him to lick a little but not much. I have also been giving him soaks daily.
<<<< cut the daily soaks , unless he's actually drinking the water in the tub , they are of no benefit to him at all.
<<< persist with the small crickets, blowfly gents, and BSF lavae will also be very good to offer him , he'll need AT LEAST THREE feeds of live insects per day (as many as he wants - I recommend feeding him in his viv as most will not eat in separate feeding tub and he''ll feel more secure in his own viv than a separate feeding tub.
Don't worry about yogurts , offer the finely grated vegs but he refuses them , no biggy , more important he get his dietary calcium and loads of live insect protein.
<<< expect a bit of relocation stress for the first few days , keep offering the bugs regular as clockwork , very important to establish a predictable routine .

I want to get him to eat a little more from the syringe but he is so tiny I don't want to hurt his jaw. I've syringe fed before but on a much bigger beardie. I would like to try the crop needle but I'm not sure I could get one in time.
<<< the key is to be gentle, I've handled and cared for injured skinks about the same weight as he is , if you snip off the head of the worm and squeeze some of the innards out and press that gently against his lips, if he's hungry he'll eat this one he gets a taste.

I did wonder if maybe my 10.0 tube was too old as I couldn't remember when I had replaced it and I had used it for my girl that had passed, so on Sunday I replaced it with a new one just to be safe.
T8 or T5HO ?

Mostly he is sleeping a lot but has little bursts of energy when I take him out. I am suspecting parasites(which is why I am giving the yogurt) but he has yet to poo for me to take in a fecal.

From the looks of him and how lethargic he is I am also suspect that he was sick before the breeder shipped him and he knew he was sending a sick beardie. They got him Wednesday(overnight shipping) and when I got him on Thursday his back legs were already sunken with no fat or muscle tone to them at all with the little hip bone joints at the base of the tail pronounced.
<<< I think this is the case , takes a while for a dragon to waste like that., these types of breeders are very bad , chance are he's never been fed properly and never had adequate lighting.
he's your responsibility now, he can recover and grow to be a nice big and healthy dragon in the right hands.

Any other suggestions?

 

[kingofnobbys]

Also, any advise on opening his mouth to syringe feed him? He’s so tiny I’m afraid to hurt him. Like I said, I’ve done it with a much larger beardie, never one this small.

Buy some plastic coated playing cards.
Take one and fold it in half , in the middle of the fold cut a hole big enough to pop a worm or cricket or roach through.

When it's feeding time secure the hatchling in your hand (firmly but gently), and slip the folded card between his lips and open it enough to slip a bug in through the hole into his mouth , once the bug is in his mouth, remove the card while he chews the bug.
When he's swallowed the bug, repeat.

 

[AHBD]

I don't know about going to that length [ the plastic card ] that's too much stress for the baby. First let him eat on his own, even if it's a small amount. Later in the day if he doesn't eat again,try smashing the bug so the guts come out as was mentioned before + rub it lightly on his snout. This is only if he's not eating on his own at all, but give him a few days. He's not emaciated, so that's a good thing.

 

[peachypink]

Great advise. Thank you all. I was a little shocked at the 3g but I weighed him myself so I know it’s accurate. I’ll try and post a size picture later. I have him in a smaller viv for now, you know, the glass ones that open on the front. It’s not ideal but it’s what I had Since this was a unexpected foster. No screen on top. At least I’m able to maintain temps in it.

@kingofnobbys, it’s a T8. I have all Arcadia HO5s for my chams but my girl had passed when I made the switch to Arcadia and wasn’t planning on getting a new Dragon for a while. I’m just thankful I still had a fixture and a never opened bulb.

 

[AHBD]

Whatever you do, don't try using a stiff playing card, that could break the baby's jaw. And a t8 is fine as long as it's within 8-10" of the baby [ some posters will say 6" but many pro breeders and myself never had lights quite that close ]

 

[peachypink]

I won’t try the card thing.

Here’s a few pics. Like I said, the viv is t ideal but it’s what I had. I may switch to the tub idea but I don’t want to stress him again.

 

[AHBD]

Yeah, the card thing is a good idea for larger dragons though. Poor little guy, he's small but not emaciated. If hew's taking a few licks of the food via syringe be sure to add a bit of calcium powder. Does he climb up the log on his own ? If so, that's great, he needs to get within 8-10" of the light for a good portion of the day. If he's struggling to get up there + bask or if you need to place him up there then he's better off in a shorter plastic tub. Has he had anything to eat this a.m ? Since he liked the small waxworms you might want to order some Phoenix/calci worms, beardies usually love the soft body worms. Waxies aren't as nutritious, but it's understandable that you'd try anything. No mealworms though, could cause a fatal impaction. If he doesn't eat much, try the smashed cricket or dubia.

 

[EllenD]

Wow, my guess is the breeder just dumped new hatchlings to raise their profit, there's no way he's 7 weeks old, and I'm not talking about his weight at 3g, he's thin, yes, but his overall length is that of maybe a 2-3 week old hatchling, closer to 2 weeks. So if the pet shop got them last Wednesday, I would bet that they were hatched the week prior. I doubt it's parasites or any other illness, they were just far too young to ship. DO NOT TRY TO GIVE HIM ANY MEDICATIONS!!!! The last thing he needs is treated for parasites or anything else by medications.

It's just going to be a case of will be eat enough to sustain life and get him through. I'd suggest overnighting or going out and buying either some Oxbow Critical Care or Reptaboost to get some calories/fat/protein in him, as baby food is mostly water. No crop needles, he's far too small, you'd kill him for sure. Instead, if you have an oral syringe or a Luer-Slip plastic syringe you can use to feed him the Reptaboost or Oxbow with, gently insert the tip of the syringe under his upper lip on the side of his mouth, back close to his ear. Then slide the tip of the syringe up his mouth towards the tip of his snout, keeping the tip of the syringe under his upper lip the entire time. Once the tip of the syringe reaches the front of his mouth he'll automatically open up, then you can push in a little of the food supplement, let him swallow it, then start over again and repeat, by inserting the tip of the syringe under his upper lip on the side of his mouth again, etc.

 

[peachypink]

Sorry, posted the same pic twice. Meant to post the viv pic.

Yea, I usually have BSFL and silks at all times but of course I ran out of both and haven’t had time to reorder. I let the BSFL turn to flies for my chams. I’ll sit and order some this afternoon. I NEVER feed meal worms. I have dubia, Orange heads and supers but not the right size for a baby. So I picked up some nymphs, pinheads and the wax worms. I know they are high fat and not nutritious but I wanted him to eat SOMETHING. lol.

He has not yet eaten this morning. I just dropped off my kids at school and am about to try now.

So given his size and weight, y’all think he’s more hatchling? Like 2-4 weeks and not the 7? I was suspect of that myself but I’ve never had one this tiny so I didn’t want to venture a guess. Although I knew 3g was way too small for 7 weeks.