Fed a medium-sized mouse to my dragon

[Taterbug]

I respectfully agree and disagree with some of what you are saying.

What I was saying is that their systems are not functioning at full capacity there for making it extremely hard for them to digest a meal that size.
Yes, they might gain a little energy from it but not enough to justify feeding something that size. They will expend a lot of energy during digestion, to gain very little benefit. So, why risk it? There are other foods that are easier on the digestion that will put on fatty weight for instance... Wax worms and super worms.
If they are healthy, there is no need to force them to eat more than they want.

Your entitled to your opinion about if it's OK to feed mice, and again assist feeding a healthy animal is general not a good idea.

However more evidence about the rest of your claim is be needed - that more energy is spent on digestion than is gained. Why are their systems not operating at full capacity? Is that related to brumation? What is the mechanism or evidence behind that? Is it because they are captives? If so that is a husbandry fault. Is mammal protein different than insect and the rodent will simple pass out the other end a slightly browner mouse?

Again - please don't confuse my criticism of the explanation as personal criticism. Your opinion is yours and your risk judgment applies to your pets, that's totally fine and good. However opinion is not fact and shouldn't be presented as such.

 

[Rankins]

Is this a female dragon?
If so all the better, she'll need the extra calcium, fats, and protein for possible egg production.

 

[Rankins]

You just stated a bunch of your opinion as fact....and you tell me not to. That's ironic....
Your muddying the water by trying to ask questions that confuse the situation. Evasion and diversion?
If you don't want to accept that a rare feeding of a mouse isnt harmful go right ahead..
But nutritionally it's not much different than feeding them baby food.

 

[Taterbug]

For the sake of comparison a large dubia I grabbed is almost 3g. Pepper is a little guy (small adult) but he'll be happy to eat 2-3. 17g is about 6 large roaches.

 

[Rankins]

Taterbug, that's why I said I would have given a smaller mouse.

 

[Taterbug]

You just stated a bunch of your opinion as fact....and you tell me not to. That's ironic....
Your muddying the water by trying to ask questions that confuse the situation. Reversion and evasion?
If you don't want to accept that a rare feeding of a mouse isnt harmful go right ahead..
But nutritionally it's not much different than feeding them baby food.

Are you referring to my comment? If so it was in reference to the post I quoted not to you?

 

[Rankins]

Sorry Taterbug...got a bit confused on my post.
Long nights lately, bad migraine for a couple days have made me mentally deficient.

 

[Gormagon]

I respectfully agree and disagree with some of what you are saying.

What I was saying is that their systems are not functioning at full capacity there for making it extremely hard for them to digest a meal that size.
Yes, they might gain a little energy from it but not enough to justify feeding something that size. They will expend a lot of energy during digestion, to gain very little benefit. So, why risk it? There are other foods that are easier on the digestion that will put on fatty weight for instance... Wax worms and super worms.
If they are healthy, there is no need to force them to eat more than they want.

Your entitled to your opinion about if it's OK to feed mice, and again assist feeding a healthy animal is general not a good idea.

However more evidence about the rest of your claim is be needed - that more energy is spent on digestion than is gained.
Why are their systems not operating at full capacity? Is that related to brumation?
Because during burmation, their systems slow to a crawl over time and, it would lead one to believe that it takes time to start back up to full capacity.
What is the mechanism or evidence behind that?
Is it because they are captives? NO
If so that is a husbandry fault.
Is mammal protein different than insect and the rodent will simple pass out the other end a slightly browner mouse?
Protein is protein but, it is what it takes to remove said protein that is the problem"time", time that could be spent digesting an easier meal. A snake crushes its prey not only to suffocate it but to crush bones to make them passable and easier to digest but the harder bones and teeth still remain with the hair and other waste when passed, Here in lies the danger... dragons can't do this safely, IMO!

Again - please don't confuse my criticism of the explanation as personal criticism. Your opinion is yours and your risk judgment applies to your pets, that's totally fine and good. However opinion is not fact and shouldn't be presented as such.

Please enlighten me if I am wrong in my thinking.

 

[Rankins]

This probably will never be agreed upon. That's perfectly fine...we don't have to accept anything we don't want to. We can care for our animals differently and still maintain good husbandry.
It is true that upon waking from brumation they can have a slow gut. But the OP had already been feeding it. Granted...the mouse was too big and was force fed which wasn't appropriate (IMO). Bowel/GI stasis doesn't sound like it's going on in this situation.

How the mouse is digested is only problematic because too large of a mouse was given. Sure the mouse would be better digested if turned to paste and shoved into a syringe, and a whole mouse would take longer. But it doesn't sound like the dragon is suffering from GI motility issues, so even if it takes a bit longer its doubtful it would be an issue if an appropriate sized mouse was given.
However here is a scenario that could be problematic in the OP's case. The mouse was too big and could take so long to digest it could putrifiy in the gut before digested.
But I had already mentioned that the mouse was too big.
If an appropriate sized mouse is given to recent post brumated animal with a working gut...that is unlikely to happen.

 

[Gormagon]

Pinkies and fuzzies are doable but that was a bit big, IMO, that is what I was trying to say.

 

[premammalian]

Everything went ok. Today my dragon pooped with completely normal feces, I mean no indigested material could be seen, and immediately after she ate 8 locusts. It is one of her top favorite foods. There is no need to quarrel in my topic, I gave her a mouse because I thought it could jump start her appetite again. The force-feeding wasn't so comfortable, but in fact it was more assist-feeding rather than force feeding. When she bit the mouse, she started eating it on her own. Otherwise she could very easily spit it out, as she has done other times. I don't plan to feed her mice all of the time. In fact This is her first mouse for as long I have her.

 

[Cinnasticks]

Everything went ok. Today my dragon pooped with completely normal feces, I mean no indigested material could be seen, and immediately after she ate 8 locusts. It is one of her top favorite foods. There is no need to quarrel in my topic, I gave her a mouse because I thought it could jump start her appetite again. The force-feeding wasn't so comfortable, but in fact it was more assist-feeding rather than force feeding. When she bit the mouse, she started eating it on her own. Otherwise she could very easily spit it out, as she has done other times. I don't plan to feed her mice all of the time. In fact This is her first mouse for as long I have her.

Well, I'm glad it all worked out! I'm sorry people are squabbling on your thread.

I'm a noobie to dragons, but I work with keepers at a local zoo and have an animal science degree. So here's what I know, from 10 years working with animals in human care: the 17g mouse was simply too big, and the assist feed is what would've gotten a junior keeper into trouble if you worked at a zoo. Luckily, you don't, and the only thing you risk is a bit of stress to your animal. When you feed large meals in particular, do your best to reduce their stress, as it can increase gastric upset and increase the chance of impaction especially after brumation. Other posters are absolutely correct about slow gut motility after brumation, but the neat thing about reptiles is how much basking under a good lamp helps. Also, while they are capable of eating and digesting such things in the wild, your domestic-bred bearded dragon is far removed from those wild relatives and may no longer have the gut strength necessary; you don't know how many generations its been since any of those dragons have had a pinky, let alone displayed the gut capability to digest it. You can think of it along the lines of how some dog breeds simply can't handle raw diets but others (huskies) are living garbage disposals. A pinky would've been a better protein to start with, and is something that zookeepers worlwide supplement almost all their reptiles with, including bearded dragons.

The RodentPro website lists nutrition value by DRY WEIGHT, so remember this will not include any water in your feeder or accurately reflect the nutrient value. They don't list the average water weight of a feeder mouse, so I'd guestimate you fed 10.0g dry weight. That's maybe 50% protein and whopping rough 25% crude fat. Great for post brumation, not so great in an animal that isn't ingesting enough water. You risked dehydration and stress to the liver and pancreas, but so long as it's not a consistent food staple and the dragon is eating greens with high water content, you should be fine. Just watch fat intake from other food for a bit.

So yes, you took a lot of risks that placed a lot of demand on your beardie's GI tract. Stress from the assist feed, post-brumation stress, stress from large prey item, stress from needing to safely digest it, stress stress stress. Stress can cause gastric upset in any animal, especially slow-moving reptiles that prefer to vomit up a heavy belly load than be caught by a hawk. It sounds like he was a healthy, strong beardie though and that everything passed smoothly! I'd stick with pinkies next time, though, just to avoid the risk of any complications. Your beardie companion is worth a lot more to you than saving the money on a feeder mouse!