Failure to Thrive Issues

[RosieBear0304]

Hello, early in March I got two baby beardies. One was 2 months old and the other about 4-5 months (at least that’s what we were told). The first few weeks were going smoothly, with both of them eating and drinking plenty and eating their greens like champs. However, suddenly the youngest, Erik, appetite starting going down and he was acting extremely lethargic. He stopped growing, while the other one, Peach, was growing extremely fast. That’s where things started going downhill.
First his appetite went down, but this happened when he was shedding so I assumed it was due to that. However, it didn’t get better. He continued to get worse and worse, going from having occasional perky moments to never holding himself up or opening his eyes all the way. He stopped eating crickets, and would only take water and strawberries.
We took him to the vet and were told he was most likely a Failure to Thrive case, considering his fecal sample came back fine and had no parasites in it. She also said there was no impaction, and was unable to do a blood test because he is too small. We were pretty much told to give him extra care and hope for the best. She gave us something called Critical Care, which was supposed to help with the how malnourished he was. After that, he started getting much better. We changed out the UVB light for a lower wattage which seemed to help and also gave him the Critical Care. He started perking up a lot more and was eating crickets again, especially if we took him outside on a warm day for some natural sunlight. We were regularly giving him baths to keep him hydrated (the Critical Care is mixed with water so he was also drinking regularly). However, he’s once again stopped eating crickets and is still losing weight. He’s pretty much skin and bones now. Oddly enough though he’s much more active. We still give him Critical Care along with chicken baby food mixed with calcium (that’s all we can get him to eat). When we give him crickets, he acts terrified and runs away even tho we only put one in there and it’s tiny. He’s pooping regularly, and they’re solid. But he obviously can’t live off of baby food, and he’s not gaining weight or growing.
Originally they both shared a 40 gallon, with a basking area that’s 90-100. The bedding is felt. The basking light was 100 Watt, and the UVB is a ReptiSun 10.0 26 Watt. They were misted twice a day, and after feeding we’d go in with a water dropper to make sure they were drinking. Peach started to display dominating behavior, so we put Erik in a 10 gallon, with felt bedding and a basking area with the same temp as in the 40 gallon. We got him a ReptiSun 10.0 UVB also, but this time it’s a 13 Watt. The crickets are dusted with Calcium (with D3), and I also feed the crickets greens and veggies.
Is there anything else we can do to get him healthier? He won’t take crickets even if we try hand feeding them to him. I’ve seen to try soft bodied worms, but I don’t know where I could get those. I’m going to try attaching a picture of when we got him verses now (there is sand in the first picture, but he was only in it for that day).

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[kingofnobbys]

Sounds like he is very depressed due to the relocation and stressed and there are likely issues with the tanks daytime temperatures and the amount of UVA he's being exposed too, and likely that his lighting and feeding schedules can do with some tweeking.

So that we can help we need a LOT of EXACT DETAIlS about your dragon's setup and it's very wise for you need to double check the following

... TEMPERATURES ?
........daytime warm zone
........overnight
........basking spot
........ how are you measuring your temperatures ?
........ TOO COLD = SLEEPY DRAGON

... UVA AND UVB ADEQUATE ?
........COMPACT & WATTAGE 13W is inadequate , you need 26 UVB200 or equiv
........is it sitting ontop a mesh top ? == BAD
........how far from basking spot ? too far and the UVA and UVB WILL BE TOO DILUTE.
........UVA FLUX TOO LOW where dragon is ==> a very lethargic dragon w/ a very poor apetite just in the short term ,
and neurological problems if this persists , not to mention MVB if UVB flux too long long enough with inadequate metabolisation of dietary calcium or inadequate intake out calcium

... TANK
....... size (L x W x H) and construction , photos of the setup are often helpful .

... SUBSTRATE ?
........is it sand ? == BAD AND IF CALCISAND EXTREMELY BAD/LETHAL
........is it particulate ? == BAD

... SHARING TANK ? == BAD , I am gobsmacked the vet never suggested separating them.

........ I would have invested in a 2nd 40Gal rearing tank and moved the older/larger dragon out , letting the smaller one keep the old tank, the bigger one can stand a week or so of relocation stress much better as it's much better fed and has more reserves.

... Can the SMALLER one see the BIG ONE when both are in their tanks ?.... This can be enough to stress an already victimized smaller / younger beardie , you need to block the sight-line.

... TOO SHORT A PHOTOPERIOD (lights are not kept on long enough each day , will make beardie think it is winter , recommend at least 14 HRS PER DAY)

... FEEDING SCHEDULE (I recommend at least 2 hrs lights/heat on before first live feed and after last feed of the day)
....... when are you offering live feeder insects ? what are they ? how big are they ?
....... when are you offering greens and other veg ? what are you offering ?

... What season is it (there where you live)

and

... weather can have an impact on your beardie's behavior, so what had the weather been like in the problem period ?

 

[kingofnobbys]

Hello, early in March I got two baby beardies. One was 2 months old and the other about 4-5 months (at least that’s what we were told). The first few weeks were going smoothly, with both of them eating and drinking plenty and eating their greens like champs. However, suddenly the youngest, Erik, appetite starting going down and he was acting extremely lethargic. He stopped growing, while the other one, Peach, was growing extremely fast. That’s where things started going downhill.
First his appetite went down, but this happened when he was shedding so I assumed it was due to that. However, it didn’t get better. He continued to get worse and worse, going from having occasional perky moments to never holding himself up or opening his eyes all the way. He stopped eating crickets, and would only take water and strawberries.
We took him to the vet and were told he was most likely a Failure to Thrive case, considering his fecal sample came back fine and had no parasites in it. She also said there was no impaction, and was unable to do a blood test because he is too small. We were pretty much told to give him extra care and hope for the best. She gave us something called Critical Care, which was supposed to help with the how malnourished he was. After that, he started getting much better. We changed out the UVB light for a lower wattage which seemed to help and also gave him the Critical Care. He started perking up a lot more and was eating crickets again, especially if we took him outside on a warm day for some natural sunlight. We were regularly giving him baths to keep him hydrated (the Critical Care is mixed with water so he was also drinking regularly). However, he’s once again stopped eating crickets and is still losing weight.
>>>>> Hand feed his bugs to him, even if you have to gently prise open his mouth enough to poke a bit of the bug in.

He’s pretty much skin and bones now. Oddly enough though he’s much more active. We still give him Critical Care along with chicken baby food mixed with calcium (that’s all we can get him to eat). <<<< are you using a feeding syringe ?

Keep up the carnivore critical care for now, get some Repashi BugPie , this is nearly perfect in Ca/P and based on BSF Maggots , so extremely healthy , give to the little one as a past via syringe.

When we give him crickets, he acts terrified and runs away even tho we only put one in there and it’s tiny. <<<<< cut giving him crickets if he's scared of them , and swap over to live phoenix worms (BSF maggots) and small (1-1.5in long) silkworms , they are very soft, wrigglely and highly nutritious , the little one NEEDS THREE MEALS OF HIGH QUALITY INSECT PROTEIN PER DAY .... + the critical care.

He’s pooping regularly, and they’re solid. <<< good , but they need to be soft not hard (he's dehydrated I expect )
But he obviously can’t live off of baby food, and he’s not gaining weight or growing.
Originally they both shared a 40 gallon, with a basking area that’s 90-100. The bedding is felt. The basking light was 100 Watt, and the UVB is a ReptiSun 10.0 26 Watt. They were misted twice a day, and after feeding we’d go in with a water dropper to make sure they were drinking. Peach started to display dominating behavior, so we put Erik in a 10 gallon, with felt bedding and a basking area with the same temp as in the 40 gallon. We got him a ReptiSun 10.0 UVB also, but this time it’s a 13 Watt. <<< I highly recommend you upgrade the 10%UVB to a 26W --- is very first thing to do , and it should be about 8 inches from his basking spot.

The crickets are dusted with Calcium (with D3), and I also feed the crickets greens and veggies.
Is there anything else we can do to get him healthier? He won’t take crickets even if we try hand feeding them to him. I’ve seen to try soft bodied worms, but I don’t know where I could get those.

<<< where are you,?
I'm sure others here who live in your country can recommend reliable insect suppliers, otherwise try Google

I’m going to try attaching a picture of when we got him verses now (there is sand in the first picture, but he was only in it for that day).

[/url][/img]

 

[RosieBear0304]

Thanks for the replies! The little one belongs to my sister so after the separation he went to stay with her. So I had to wait for her to gather up the info you were looking for, here it is:
-Daytime cool side= 76 F
-Nighttime= 80F
-Basking= 88F-90F
-UVA/ UVB is over the basking spot.
-Flooring is ReptiCarpet
-He is not within sight of the bully, he's in a different room.
-UVB is on for 12 hours a day.
- She offers crickets at 12pm and at night, and if he doesn't eat them then she offers the critical care and baby food.
-He has constant access to greens such as turnip greens and mustard greens, which she says he never eats.
-We live in north Carolina, and right now it's between spring and summer. However, the weather can go from freezing one day, to hot as Hades the next no matter the season. It has been pretty stormy as of late though.
- At night she uses what I think is a 50 watt red-light basking light to keep him warm since her room gets pretty cold at night.
-The lamp does sit on top of the lid, is that a major problem?
-He's 8 inches from the lights.
- At night she puts the light vertical and during the day she keeps it horizontal (it's a dual lamp that can hold 2 bulbs).

Also to clarify some things:
-When I said his poop was solid, I meant it wasn't runny. It is still wet/soft and we keep him hydrated with daily baths and have him drink from a syringe and eye dropper. That's also how he gets most of his food.
-I've tried googling to see where to buy any insects, and the last time we tried buying some crickets online half of them were dead, the other half dying and it was also full of spiders, beetles, and weird fluffy worms. So I'd like to see what others with more experience would suggest.

We're going to look for some phoenix worms, silkworms, and the Repashi BugPie. We'll also see about changing his UVB lamp.

Here's a picture of his set up (well, his nighttime set up):

 

[Gormagon]

Looking at the viv, I can see 3 things that can cause this!
1. Dragons like it pitch dark and, cool at night (65° to 75°). This allows their metabolism to slow down enough to actually get rest when they sleep. Do not use any type of light emitting heat sources at night, it effects they way they eat, the way they grow and the way they feel"grumpy". Not getting rested at night will cause lethargy.
2. Those compact type uvb bulbs have been known to cause eye irritation, eye infections and/or blindness in some cases. Also, they don't produce property uvb levels and, without the right uvb levels they can't metabolise the nutrients in their food effectively causing them to not want to eat and, lethargy. I use a reptisun 10.0 t5 ho linier tube uvb bulb and fixture to provide what my dragon needs. The Arcadia 12%d3 is another excellent choice. These lights provide the closest to desert sunlight that is possible in an artificial light.
3. Those dial thermometers can be off as much as 20°+/-. To get accurate readings you need to invest in a laser temp gun or, digital thermometer w/probe. This is also very important, proper heat aids in digestion. If the can't digest it they won't eat it, causing lethargy.

I hope this helps!

 

[kingofnobbys]

Thanks for the replies! The little one belongs to my sister so after the separation he went to stay with her. So I had to wait for her to gather up the info you were looking for, here it is:
-Daytime cool side= 76 F
-Nighttime= 80F
-Basking= 88F-90F <<< too cold , needs to be bumped up by about 10F - 12F.
-UVA/ UVB is over the basking spot.
-Flooring is ReptiCarpet
-He is not within sight of the bully, he's in a different room.
-UVB is on for 12 hours a day. <<<<< too short ( he thinks it's winter) , bump up by at least 3 hrs per day (my lights come on 6am and go off at 10pm via a timer).
- She offers crickets at 12pm and at night, and if he doesn't eat them then she offers the critical care and baby food.
-He has constant access to greens such as turnip greens and mustard greens, which she says he never eats. <<<<< I recommend feed live insects in am (about brekk, big feed), then about midday and about 5pm and offer salad with his last live feed, else he will fill up on greens and veg and have no room for his ALL IMPORTANT LIVE INSECT PROTEIN.
-We live in north Carolina, and right now it's between spring and summer. However, the weather can go from freezing one day, to hot as Hades the next no matter the season. It has been pretty stormy as of late though.
- At night she uses what I think is a 50 watt red-light basking light <<<<< ditch the red coloured basking light as it will be making it hard for him to see his live bugs, replace with a colorless incandescent spot lamp ie an 80W Par38 Philips .
to keep him warm since her room gets pretty cold at night. <<<< if the room gets cold at night he needs both a Ceramic heat emitter and this controlled by a switching thermostat to keep the tank warm overnight.
-The lamp does sit on top of the lid, is that a major problem?
-He's 8 inches from the lights.
- At night she puts the light vertical and during the day she keeps it horizontal (it's a dual lamp that can hold 2 bulbs).

Also to clarify some things:
-When I said his poop was solid, I meant it wasn't runny. It is still wet/soft and we keep him hydrated with daily baths and have him drink from a syringe and eye dropper. That's also how he gets most of his food.
-I've tried googling to see where to buy any insects, and the last time we tried buying some crickets online half of them were dead, the other half dying and it was also full of spiders, beetles, and weird fluffy worms. So I'd like to see what others with more experience would suggest.

We're going to look for some phoenix worms, silkworms, and the Repashi BugPie. We'll also see about changing his UVB lamp.

Here's a picture of his set up (well, his nighttime set up):