Eating very little + Gout

[MommyOfDragons]

Hello,

Oh the poor little one. I am so sorry she keeps flipping. Maybe you could take the hammock out or anything else that she has to climb on to help reduce her flipping?
How often do you find her like that?
Do you have a copy of the blood tests I could see?
The calcium glubionate is commonly used & prescribed for calcium deficiencies so that should be helping out for her.
Can you post a new pic on the bulb placement, were you able to get it mounted underneath of the screen now?
As mentioned, unfortunately it does take awhile for them to make a turnaround & begin to improve.
Their systems are very unique & specialized. Try to give her a little more time, as she is young & hopefully she can begin to improve.
The Toltrazuril would be much better to give for coccidia than Albon. Can he give that instead?
As far as the bee pollen, grapefruit extract & colloidal silver they can all be given to help out for immune system. The Sovereign Silver is a good brand, at 10ppm. I would say you could give .5ml to 1ml daily or every other day, for a few weeks, then cycle off a week or so then start again.
The allopurinol does take awhile to work but it is highly effective so give it a bit of time to show some progress.
I am glad you took her off of the tramadol, it can be hard on them.
The back of the throat shouldn't be black no. Could it be any stuck food possibly? Is her breathing labored at all? They can get inner ear infection, yes. I hope she doesn't have a respiratory infection. It sounds like you are syringing the food/fluids correctly through the side of her mouth.
Have you had her tested for Adeno also? Sorry if I missed that somewhere.


Tracie

Adenovirus = yes. ?

I just got a voice message from the vet. She tested positive for adenovirus. He said it's not necessarily a death sentence, but we're definitely battling an uphill battle. So when I call him back in a little bit, I'll request the Totrazuril and continue giving her the colloidal silver. Thanks for the dosage. I hope I'm not just prolonging her pain and suffering. My fiance and I want her to get better - she just looks so miserable. I'll post a picture of our new set up when I get home from work tonight. So.. My other dragon, Biggie, is probably a carrier of adenovirus too (he's not displaying any symptoms). They were housed together at the pet store and then in my home for the first 2 months.

 

[EllenD]

Oh I'm so sorry, what horrible news. I know that must have been very, very discouraging to find out, but in all honesty it is (unfortunately or fortunately depending on how you look at it) not uncommon at all for Beardies, especially ones that come from PetSmart and Petco, to test positive for Adenovirus. Because it's becoming more and more common we now know that it is absolutely NOT A DEATH SENTENCE if it is caught early and treatment is started early. I think that most people who find out their Beardie has Adenovirus automatically assume that their Beardie is going to die and unfortunately a lot of people used to automatically have them euthanized without doing any treatment. The fact of the matter is that most of the Beardies that are treated for Adenovirus and show no improvement at all and end up dying are Beardies that are older (usually adults or sub-adults) that had never been to any vet before at all, let alone a reptile vet with Beardie experience, and their owners had refused to take them for treatment when they first showed signs or symptoms of being sick. They instead get on here and ask forum members to diagnose what is wrong with their Beardie and what home remedies they can try. Only after months and months, to even over a year of trying anything and everything that doesn't cost money will they take their Beardie to a vet (if it doesn't die in the meantime and then they pay for a necropsy that diagnoses Adenovirus, so it falsely and looks like it's incurable). At that point, when the Beardie is diagnosed with Adenovirus, the poor thing is so weak, has lost so much weight, is completely dehydrated, and cannot even begin to fight off the virus or even tolerate the treatments for that matter. So this irresponsibility, which I swear to you I unfortunately see multiple times every day on here, is what has given most people the idea that if their Beardie contracts Adenovirus it's absolutely going to die so they might as well not even try to treat them. It's a false sense of despair unfortunately. I'm not saying that Adenovirus isn't a very nasty disease, but because you are a very responsible Beardie owner and got your Beardie medical treatment immediately after she showed any signs of illness, combined with how young and strong she is, gives your little girl the best chance possible for beating this nasty virus... Probably the best chance I've seen in a long time. And I thank you so much for taking proper care of your Beardies and being a loving and responsible pet owner... Believe me, it's rare.

As far as your male Beardie, don't automatically assume he also has Adenovirus. There is absolutely no rhyme or reason as to what Beardies carry the virus or contract the virus and which ones don't. I've seen several Beardies that were housed together for their entire lives up until the point one of them became ill, and the other beardie has tested negative for whatever the sick beardie had. I'm sure you now have them separated but I would also have their enclosures in different rooms if you don't already. Make sure you wash your hand thoroughly with anti-bacterial soap after handling either of them (I keep hand sanitizer next to my girl's enclosure), and make sure to change any clothing you're wearing if either of your Beardies lay on them, crawl on them, basically if either of them touch them. Same thing with blankets, towels, anything that either of them touch must be changed and washed before you even go to the other beardie's room. Yes you of course want to keep your male Beardie from contracting the Adenovirus from your female if he does in fact test negative, BUT YOU ALSO WANT TO KEEP ANY BUG AT ALL THAT YOUR MALE MIGHT HAVE AWAY FROM YOUR FEMALE! This is very, very important, as she cannot contract any other illnesses while she's battling the Adenovirus!

I wish you the best of luck and I'm sending positive energy to you, your Beardies, and your family. It sounds like you have a very competent reptile vet which is soooooooo important and something that most people do not have access to unfortunately. And you have us here on the forum for not only help answering questions and helping with your beardie's treatment and recovery, but also for support!

 

[MommyOfDragons]

Thank you for the positive energy, EllenD!

The vet said he doesn't have a medication for the coccidia that wont further damage the kidneys. I mentioned Toltrazuril and he said it's hard to get . . . but he will try to order it . . . Does anyone know how I can get a hold of this medication quickly? The vet also said he'll email me her whole file - I'm still waiting on that. Hopefully by tomorrow - then I'll for sure post them here.

Tracie, I have only found her flipped on her back twice and once doing a breakdance-like move. She was balancing on her left arm and left leg while the right arm and right leg were up in the air. It reminded me of a chihuahua I saw one time balancing on his front feet while his butt and back legs were in the air.

The T5 hasn't been mounted in the tank yet. My boyfriend insists that she's getting enough light because it's high output, reaches out 36 inches, and the vet said that enough UVB can get through the holes. But I did read on the packaging that the mesh lid blocks up to 50% of the light and UVB so I'll for sure rig something up in the morning and show you how it looks.

I mentioned her weird "open mouth - stick tongue out - gulp" thing to the vet and emailed him a video of her doing it. Probably wont get a response from him til Thursday or Friday. Wish I could upload videos here so I can see if anyone else's dragon does it. The nurse said dragons swallow air to appear bigger, but it looks like she's having trouble with her esophagus in some way (and I don't see any obstruction) - that's the weirdest and most concerning thing.

She also hasn't had a bowel movement in 3 days. She's been on a liquid diet (.5ml of carnivore critical care/meds twice daily) so I don't know where it all goes. I gave her a soak today hoping it would help. I'll give her a bath everyday from now on. Tracie, in regards to the amount of colloidal silver, did you mean to say to give her .05 - .1 milliliters? You typed 0.5 to 1.0 mL. I think 1 milliliter is a lot for little Fancy Pants.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Yes, .5ml to 1ml daily then with the colloidal silver.
It seems like a lot, but it isn't all that much.
There should be a pharmacy which sells Toltrazuril, but offhand don't know of one.
If he isn't able to find any, let me know. I actually sell it on my website, in paste form.
There are labs in Canada that sell it. Did he mention the coccidia levels at all, if they were really high?
The T5 light/UVB will be greatly filtered through screen, at 14 inches. Unless you can get him to a 6-8 inch distance with the light on top of the screen then I highly recommend getting it mounted underneath of the screen if you have lowered the basking. It should be 10 or so inches from him. It is a Reptisun 10 T5, correct? I do think moving it to where he can get more direct exposure will help.
The swallowing/gulping could be related to calcium issues, due to neuromuscular problems. I hope that there isn't a growth in there somewhere.
That's nice he is emailing you her file, too.
Is the critical care pretty thin it? You could try adding some sugar free applesauce or canned pumpkin to the mix to help move things through.

Tracie

 

[MommyOfDragons]

Well . . I'm still waiting for the file to be emailed to me. . . don't know what the heck is taking so long. When I spoke with the doctor on the phone Tuesday, he said he would email it . . and I've emailed twice reminding them. I think I'm starting to become the annoying client.

Anyway, Fancy Pants had a bowel movement yesterday. It was a good size for her, but now her vent looks swollen (stuck out/raised a bit, not red). Does this still look normal? I have been giving her daily baths to help with the movement and she also drinks from the bathwater sometimes. She's on an all liquid diet too.

I removed the screen top and suspended the T5 and basking lights from the shelf above. They are still 14 inches away from her. I'll work on getting it even lower. There really is nothing for me to secure it if it's going to be lower. It currently has some zip ties and hot glue on the ends where the fixture doesn't get very hot. And then some strong Gorilla/duct tape across the top of the tank. It's hard to explain, haha.

Has anyone used Reptaid for coccidia? https://www.amazon.com/Reptaid-Supplement-parasitic-bacterial-infections/dp/B006X3YHO8
I can't wait for the doctor to get the Toltrazuril in. I feel like she needs these parasites gone ASAP. Tracie, what's the name of your website and how fast can I get the medicine shipped to Illinois? I remember the vet saying that Fancy has HIGH levels of coccidia and flagella parasites. I will call in a bit and ask politely, again, for them to send me her test results!!!

 

[MommyOfDragons]

Just got home from work. Her vent is protruding a little more. Is this the start of a prolapse? What do I do? I think she strained while pooping last time. I'm about to give her a bath.

 

[CooperDragon]

If it's the beginning of a prolapse the common advice is to give her a bath in a sugar water solution which should help reduce the swelling. If you see her push out internal tissue then you may need to visit a vet for assistance if it doesn't retract on it's own.

 

[MommyOfDragons]

Okay, here are the blood test results. Vet's office says they ordered the ponazuril, but I don't know how long that will take to arrive. I keep looking at my beardie as I type this. I don't know what to do. I have hope (I'm a optimistic person) that she'll get better, but she currently isn't moving, can't even keep her eyes open. I'm sure she's depressed. She is 95% immobile. Absolutely no function in her arms and can barely lift her head. I can't even see her breathing. She keeps opening her mouth every minute or she makes that hiccup motion. Even when she's sleeping, she has to open her mouth. I don't even know if she is getting sleep at all. I'm literally force-feeding her. I don't know if I should put her down and take her out of her misery or keep trying. Wish I had a crystal ball to see the future. My fiance keeps telling me that we should put her down because there is no improvement - the mouth opening and hiccup motions are what concerns him most. I know it takes time for reptiles to show improvement, and I want to push through and fight with her. I mean, I'm planning on getting a nursing degree . . . this is what I'd do with a human patient - try anything and everything. I'm just under a lot of stress with this whole situation and it doesn't help when my fiance keeps telling me we're basically just extending her suffering. I understand his point of view though. Wish we knew what Fancy Pants wanted.

Okay, thank you for letting me vent.

CBC (Avian and Exotics)
WBC Estimate: 7.5 - 1000/uL
WBC count estimated from smear.
HCT: 44 H (28 - 36) %
RBC Morphology: Normal
Blood Parasite:s None Seen
Heterophils: 65 (34 - 77) %
Absolute Heterophils: 4875 (1698 - 5445) /mL
Toxic Changes: None Seen
Bands: 0 %
Absolute Bands: 0 /mL
Lymphocytes: 24 (5 - 58) %
Absolute Lymphocyt: 1800 (0 - 5512) /mL
Monocytes: 6 H (0 - 2) %
Absolute Monocyte: 450 H (0 - 144) /mL
Eosinophils: 1 (0 - 1) %
Absolute Eosinophi: 75 H (0 - 53) /mL
Basophils: 0 (0 - 4) %
Absolute Basophils: 0 (0 - 279) /mL
Azurophilic Monocyte: 4 %
Absolute Azurophilic: 300
Thrombocyte Estimat: Adequate


04-28-17 Hyperuricemia
04-28-17 GOUT - Arthritic
05-08-17: Final Atadenovirus results - POS.

Tx Plan: Discussed differentials for orthopedic lesions, chronic poor-doing (congenital, infectious,
tox, husbandry); rec cbc/chem to asses ua, electrolytes; rec Ca supplement, DMG for metabolic,
neurological support in interim to lab results. Rec tramadol for pain control. If indeed hyperuricemic, rec allopurinol, fluid therapy, assist-feed; herban renal support/anti-inflam (efa).

Uric acid notably elevated.
- changes in potassium, sodium; Cah wnl.
- cbc reveals mild polycythemia, mild monocytosis/eosinophilia

Spoke w/ o re email, photos, description suggest central/peripheral neuro pathology; fecal results
also concerning (mod-high coccidiosis, protozoa); multisystemic signs suggest more insidious ddx
(atadenovirus, septicemia, congenital); rec carnivore care, additional fluids, atadenovirus pcr -
discussed poor long term px, discussed possibility of hosp w/ IO fluids. Discussed quality of life, rec allowing another 5-7 days of tx, recheck to discuss qol, tx options.


05-04-17
3+ coccidia, 2+ entamoeba

- rec tx for coccidia; however TMS, baycox can have adverse effects on the kidneys.
- CC will be looking into ponazuril or toltrazuril for tx
We have ponazuril ordered, will contact o when in.

Positive result. Transmissible, rec closed collection. Prognosis poor

05-09-17: no interest in food, but getting critical care in. o thinks throat appears black.
Discussed above, o to send email re swallowing motion, will look into colloidal silver dose.

1144 SubQ Fluids - OutPatient
2 ml warmed ringers SC


Ova and Parasites with Centrif
Ova & Parasite Positive

Parasite #1 Isospora Oocysts 3+
Coccidia having 2 sporocysts (genus Isospora) are present.
Parasite #2 Entamoeba Cysts 2+
Entamoeba cysts are often noted to be commensal organisms of the GI tract.

Direct Smear Positive
--------------- Ova & Parasite Reporting Scheme ---------------------
The number of eggs or parasites is the number on the entire slide (not
per field) for each parasite reported...
1 seen = 1 egg or parasite seen on entire slide
1+ = 2-to-4 eggs or parasites (few)
2+ = 5-to-10 eggs or parasites (small)
3+ = 11-to-50 eggs or parasites (moderate)
4+ = >50 eggs or parasites (many)
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Parasite #1 Isospora Oocysts 2+
Coccidia having 2 sporocysts (genus Isospora) are present.
Parasite #2 Entamoeba Cysts 1+


Uric acid notably elevated.
- changes in potassium, sodium; Cah wnl.
- cbc reveals mild polycythemia, mild monocytosis/eosinophilia

04-29-17 at 4:01p: mild polycythemia, otherwise wnl per carpenters

04-27-17: Acquired from pet store with another beardie. Other beardie has grown
significantly, this one not at all. Fell off a high branch in Feb, taken to vet got rads and showed no
fracture, only swelling. Placed on metacam, better for two days, on third day head shaking and not eating. Once stopped metacam, back to eating. Still had inconsistent appetite and no growth. Trouble walking and drags belly across floor. Defecating but sometimes runny and smaller.

Husbandry: 40gallon tank, carpet bedding, 10.0 UVB output, heat lamp, basking 100-105, low night 70-75, humidity 40%. Diet of greens, crickets and roaches. Get calcium, multivitamins and probiotic. (go)

ABNORMALITIES
General Appearance
BAR; curious, interactive

Integument / Skin
dermis uniform.

Musculoskeletal
mild-mod under conditioning. Multifocal areas of raised, firm swellings associated with stifles, cubital joints,
carpi, tarsi, interphalangeal areas.

Respiratory
nares, choana clear

Digestive
oral cavity unremarkable. caudocoelomic palp wnl

Genitourinary
vent appears normal

Neurologic
diffuse tremor/spastic movement on attempt to ambulate.

Normal Systems: Circulatory, Glandular / LN, Ears, Eyes, Mucous Membranes

DIAGNOSES
Hyperuricemia
GOUT - Arthritic

NOTES
Tx Plan: Discussed differentials for orthopedic lesions, chronic poor-doing (congenital, infectious, tox,husbandry); rec cbc/chem to asses ua, electrolytes; rec Ca supplement, DMG for metabolic,
neurological support in interim to lab results.

 

[AHBD]

Poor thing, and poor you as the one who is watching Fancy suffer. I think that with the adeno diagnosis on top of everything else that she probably won't make it. I can see wanting to try but she just seems too far gone. Do what you think is best though....I'd be happy to be wrong.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

I hate to see all of those values & to learn she is adeno positive.
Have you started giving the silver yet?
She definitely has a lot of issues & I can understand wanting to help her. That's a hard
decision to make, poor girl. Did he already give the allopurinol?
That sounds good to take the screen top off right now, for better UVB exposure. That
hasn't seemed to help out?
When it comes to decisions like this, it is never easy.
What is her breathing like, can you post a video possibly & is her beard dark? You had mentioned she had her mouth open a lot to breathe.
I am sorry you are going through this with her.
Let us know how things are going.

Tracie

 

[MommyOfDragons]

Hi everyone, my little Fancy Pants is doing the same, at least she's not worse. I'm still getting carnivore critical care and meds in her just fine. Here's everything I've been giving her daily:

Started 4/27
Calcium Glubionate
VS Vetri DMG liquid (immune support)
Tramadol (pain reliever) about every other day when I think she's uncomfortable

Started 5/02
Allopurinol (for gout)
KHA Rehmannia Eight Combo (kidney support)
Rx Ultra EFA

Started 5/10 (on my own without getting a dosage from the vet):
Grapefruit seed extract - 2 drops
Colloidal silver - .5ml
a pinch of reptile probiotic powder
a few bee pollen granules
a pinch of reptile multivitamin

Tracie, no word from the vet's office on the ponazuril so I'll order toltrazuril from your website along with the black cherry powder and serrapeptase.

I have Reptaid. It has grapefruit seed extract in it so if I start it then I'll eliminate the separate GSE. It has 2.6% grain alcohol in it though, as a preservative I assume. Would that be okay with her kidney condition? And would it be okay if I used this alongside the toltrazuril?

I also have MesoGold's colloidal gold 20ppm. Would that be better than the silver? How much should I give? Still 0.5 daily? Maybe both the silver and gold?

Oh yeah, her vent is back to normal. Had a nice poop this morning and she was alright. Her poor forearms are still really swollen and there's a big nodule at her elbow joint. Hope the allopurinol starts kickin in.

I feel like an improvement is right around the corner. She's hanging on. Before starting treatment (since we brought her home from Petsmart actually), she always had tummy stress marks and her whole body got super dark sometimes. Since we started treatment, I have not seen any stress marks, no black beard, and her orange colors are brighter.

She still cannot move her body, only her head. And she's still opening her mouth like a yawn even though it definitely is not hot sometimes. And her head is . . I don't know how to describe it - like a motion when you sneeze, but she's lying flat on the ground and it makes her move like an inchworm. I thought she wanted to move from the hot side to the cool side in her tank, but then I positioned her facing the opposite way and she moved from the cool side to the hot side. I'm wondering if it's an involuntary movement, neurological . . . hmm.

I'll find out how to post a video sometime this week so you can see what I'm talking about.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Wow so she is holding on then? How is her breathing, is it regular though, but just mouth breathing?
Is she sleeping through the night comfortably?
They haven't contacted you yet about the Ponazuril?
The silver or gold either one would be fine to give for help with immune system, too. Continue the .5ml daily. The grapeseed extract is very good. It will take the allopurinol a bit to show improvement.
I hate she is going through this! You mentioned she was doing a little better?
Are you keeping her warm overnight also?

Let us know how she is doing.

Tracie

 

[MommyOfDragons]

Hello,

Wow so she is holding on then? How is her breathing, is it regular though, but just mouth breathing?
Is she sleeping through the night comfortably?
They haven't contacted you yet about the Ponazuril?
The silver or gold either one would be fine to give for help with immune system, too. Continue the .5ml daily. The grapeseed extract is very good. It will take the allopurinol a bit to show improvement.
I hate she is going through this! You mentioned she was doing a little better?
Are you keeping her warm overnight also?

Let us know how she is doing.

Tracie

Hello! It's definitely been a while since I last posted. Here's what's happened in the past month...
Fancy Pants was given the ponazuril (stool hasn't been retested yet), she's continued on the allopurinol and all her supplements. I just finished a bottle of colloidal silver, I'm going to switch over to the colloidal gold. She is a bit more flexible and can now take a few steps. I'm still syringe-feeding her. Her blood was retested and her uric acid levels and calcium are now normal. She still has that lump on her elbow though.

The most concerning thing right now is her mouth-opening. Two different vets have no response when I tell them that I never see her lungs expand. She had the tips of her nostrils cleaned out with a toothpick a few days ago. Her nostrils are super tiny to begin with. She doesn't have mucous and I don't hear any wheezing. She opens her mouth every minute or so and kind of gulps. She is an air-sucker and fills her tummy, but her mouth opening is excessive. And it's not due to her being hot. When she sleeps at night at 72 degrees F, she is still opening her mouth which makes her extremely sleepy during the day. Her eyes are closed most of the day.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

That is great her uric acid levels are normal now, did he recommend her staying on allopurinol for awhile as well? I think it would be a good idea for now.
Did she just start the mouth opening behavior? It could be a respiratory issue that has gone undetected. This can be common with Adeno, causing respiratory problems. You know, kind of like people who for some unknown reason develop asthma, etc. You could consider doing some nebulizer treatments on her, using colloidal silver or F10 diluted, or just a simple saline solution to see if that helps improve her breathing. It sounds like something is bothering her some if she doesn't open her eyes a lot right now. Is she eating?
Let us know how she is doing.

Tracie