dubia feeding results

[wes]

Janie, you seem to think exposure to used coffee grounds makes the roaches toxic for the rest of their life. Do you have any evidence for this or is this pure conjecture on your part? And as far as the mortality rate, so far my graph has week one before coffee grounds were given: three dead adults and three dead nymphs; week two, consisting of one week of being fed used coffee grounds: zero deaths.

Sandy, that's a valid point, but I've never dissected one of these roaches and I'm curious how much coffee grounds could even end up in the dragon. Based on the number of roaches I have and the amount of coffee grounds eaten, I don't think in reality it would be very much. I'm giving the roaches just as nutritious a diet as most everyone else: dog food, fish flakes, lettuce, fruits and vegetables (which usually dry out before they finish them), oatmeal, etc., but I'm also adding the coffee grounds. In what little I can find on the usage of used coffee grounds as feed for animals, if fed a high percentage, it can be harmful or even fatal to some animals, but building up the levels also builds up their tolerance. It can actually be beneficial to cows. Fermenting the coffee grounds apparently makes them more nutritious and could that happen inside a roach? Since the used coffee grounds would be such a small percentage of a dragon's diet, I really don't think it will pose any risk to the dragon. And if it makes my roaches so happy, why not?

 

[DragonMomSandy]

:silent:

 

[wes]

Sandy, if I were to pay for such testing, what would the numbers mean? Is there a level at which caffeine is beneficial to a beardie? Is there a level at which it is harmful? What are you basing these numbers on? Has someone already done tests on bearded dragons for different levels of caffeine? Similarly, what would the numbers mean with respect to the roaches? And what "other chemicals from the coffee" were you referring to? And I would have the same question: what would any of those numbers mean? It seems to me the numbers would be meaningless and therefore the test pointless.

 

[zebraflavencs]

Ahhh but my friend... that is the Joy ! of Science !
Caffeine does effect dragons, now to what extent, there have been studies done.
I can direct you to those papers.
I'm certainly interested to see long term effect of caffeine on roaches, and how long those residuals remain in a roaches system.
You stated above "you seem to think exposure to used coffee grounds makes the roaches toxic for the rest of their life. Do you have any evidence for this or is this pure conjecture on your part?" I have some information, but it dealt directly with dragons, not roaches...
??
Janie.
Thanks Sandy for the kudos... but I'm just an old woman... opening new doors
*grins*

 

[zebraflavencs]

Wes... Here are the links to those Papers I mentioned:

http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project_ideas/Zoo_p030.shtml

http://www.springerlink.com/content/vk73p220r2212427/

http://www.hawaiiancoqui.org/FedLetter092701.htm

I think those should give you an idea why I am... concerned about this. That last one certainly.
Janie

 

[wes]

Wes... Here are the links to those Papers I mentioned:

http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project_ideas/Zoo_p030.shtml

This first one is a suggestion for a science fair project.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/vk73p220r2212427/

This second one is a paper on the mechanism of the therapeutic use of caffeine on muscle reflexes.

http://www.hawaiiancoqui.org/FedLetter092701.htm

This last one is a letter from the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency to the Hawaii Dept. of Agriculture pertaining to a request by the state of Hawaii to use a product that is 99% caffeine to control two kinds of frogs. Let me share some quotes from it:

Since very little information exists regarding caffeine hazard to non-mammalian species, systematic monitoring studies for affected non-target organisms, including insects, birds, mammals, reptiles, and amphibians, need to be conducted in and around areas of caffeine use.

although caffeine has a short aquatic half-life, it is unclear if significant risk is present for aquatic organisms

There was nothing in this letter that indicated that small amounts of caffeine were harmful, and, if anything, it seems to indicate that caffeine would probably not stay in the roach's system for very long.

I think those should give you an idea why I am... concerned about this. That last one certainly.
Janie

I don't see anything pertaining to dragons. Did you send the wrong ones?

 

[DragonMomSandy]

:|

 

[DragonMomSandy]

Beardi Addict: Sorry about the hi-jack!

 

[wes]

Sandy, the EPA letter pertained to a compound that was 99% caffeine to be sprayed on frogs. Vitamins in that dosage would kill if ingested. If you recall, Janie supplied this "paper" as evidence of the effect of caffeine on dragons. But as you and I both noted, the letter actually says "very little information exists regarding caffeine hazard to non-mammalian species," and so contradicts her statement that she has evidence.

If the percentage of caffeine in a roach has meaning, please share. Let's say I have some tests run and it comes back 0.001% caffeine or 1% caffeine. What would those numbers mean? Nothing, unless you also tested various amounts of caffeine on bearded dragons, which you are not willing to do. And the numbers wouldn't mean anything with the roaches, either, unless the amounts of coffee grounds given were also recorded and there were roaches to act as a control, given the same diet but not fed coffee grounds, which I don't have. So, actually, you and Janie are better set up to do the testing: you have more roaches than I do, you would have roaches that weren't offered used coffee grounds, you probably have contacts to get the testing done, and you are both science geeks interested in the numbers. You just need coffee grounds, which should be easy enough to obtain for free.

Do you have any evidence that caffeine would be stored anywhere in the body of a roach, or a human for that matter, to cause a toxic buildup over time that you two propose could happen? I think you and Janie are making a mountain out of a molehill.

 

[DragonMomSandy]

:silent:

 

[Twobeardieguy]

Don`t want to step on any toes here but I dont think caffeine is beneficial to any beardies at all!! Or for any reptile for that matter! Yes sure your roaches are going to eat them, they are roaches and they will eat just about anything! You say that your roaches where more alert after eating them? I dont know. If you bump up the heat they will become more alert and alive! More oranges and greens and protein and you will see plenty of babies in no time at all! I would rather know that my beardies are eating healthy. Its not like they are going to stop in for a coffee or go out in the field and eat beans. Just remember their is a lot of things out their that is not in a beardies diet but people feed it anyways then a few months down the road are wandering what happened! It may not kill or harm them right away but eventually it may!! My point is why would you want to feed them any coffee? Why risk it? Just my 2 cents.

 

[ez2bbad64]

i have to agree with two beardie guy. i wouldent take the chance of feeding them caffine i would worry about the long term effects on what it can do to your dragon. i try to feed my roaches healthy things i would feed my dragons