Does this look like the start of MBD?

[pikachuomg]

Hello, I have recently purchased a beardie. She is probably around 6 months old, exactly 12 inches long. I've had her for about 1 1/2 weeks.
The people at the pet store told me to feed her spinach, romaine lettuce, and collard greens + 5 dubia roaches twice daily. I will admit I didn't know very much about bearded dragons so I didn't really know what to be looking for in a healthy beardie. She told me to get the zoomed powersun 100watt lamp and put it on the screen cover top, in fact she insisted that is all I would need for her. Also, to keep get a heating mat that is on at all times.
I've been doing a lot of research since my purchase and have made a few changes.
My setup: I have a 40 gallon breeder, I give her calcium w/ d3 supplements, i upped her dubia feeding to about 10 roaches twice daily which I dust with the supplements, I give her a variety of fresh foods including bellpeppers, blueberries, yams, collard greens, carrots, strawberries, zucchini and sweet potatoes. She has 2 dens one rock and one wood, a climbing tree, hammock, large water bowl (which she never drinks from..) and a food bowl. Her substrate was reptile carpet, but it seems unsanitary so I installed some tile today. I changed her heating and light to the infared heating lamp and a 10.0 uvb zoomed lamp. Also, I still have the heating pad. The reason I changed her lighting was because I was reading that uvb gets cut in half by the screen top. I was also thinking that if I kept the powersun there would be too much uvb and light for her. I recently purchased some multivitamins that I will be feeding her twice a week. Anyways, I have the bulbs and heating mat on a 12 hour cycle currently.

Her behavior: She is the sweetest little thing I could ever hold! She doesn't really move around in her terrarium too much. She will sit on the rock or the tree generally and doesn't do too much. She will either pancake out or have her head raised. When i take her out she just chills on my shoulder, hand, or arms. When I put her on the bed she will walk around and lick everything. I don't really trust her on the floor yet. She didn't poop for the first few days when I got her. However, ever since I upped her feedings she poops everyday.

- side note- She seriously doesn't eat any fresh foods on her own -.- I have to swiftly put it in the way as she is aiming for the dubia for her to eat it! So if anybody can help me on how I can get her to eat her veggies that would be lovely

So I have a few questions. Should I be feeding her less? Does the setup sound ok? Do I need to add anything/take out anything? If her underbite is due to MBD what else can/should I be doing to help her get better? How long until I see improvement? Should I change the heating pad to run at all times?

This is when I brought her home:

This is her after I've been feeding her more:

This is the picture of her under bite. I'm very worried that is the an early sign of MBD.

I don't have very man pictures of her when she is awake, because I just love taking pictures of her cute little face sleeping!

I love my little Amber so much, I just want her to have the happiest, healthiest life possible.

 

[VenusAndSaturn]

She looks pretty healthy however i'd throw out that infrared bulb, they disrupt beardies sleep entirely if they produce light or are colored. Only suitable night time heat sources are heat emitters and only if its below 65.
The powersun would be perfectly fine along side a reptisun t5 10.0 tube light. Your 10.0 uvb bulb is a tube light correct? If not and she hasnt had proper uvb for quite some time then the underbite may be the beginning of mbd, however i dont see much of a underbite in the pictures.
In fact its much better to have a tube light than a MVB as the MVB only stays in one place so there is no uvb anywhere else but the basking area.
If your still feeding her spinach, or lettuce completely throw those two out or eat it yourself. They are unsuitable for beardies and many other reptiles. Collard greens, turnip greens and mustard greens are commonly used for daily salads. Also make sure you are offering fruits only once to twice a week along with carrots and not every day.
I also suggest getting another calcium supplement as if they have too much d3 they can overdose. I personally use repti-cal calcium without d3 3 times a week with zoomeds calcium with d3 two times a week for the calcium part.
As for the feeding i'd give her as much as she wants in 10-15 minutes every feeding or 10-20 bugs each feeding, usually in the middle at 15 is good for every feeding.
And for the heating pad make sure it doesnt get too hot where it is.

Also i must add, in the last picture your using a stick on temperature gauge/humidity gauge. Those dont work at all so i recommend getting a temp gun or proper temperature gauge with a probe so you know the actual basking spot surface temp and not the air temp.

 

[pikachuomg]

She looks pretty healthy however i'd throw out that infrared bulb, they disrupt beardies sleep entirely if they produce light or are colored. Only suitable night time heat sources are heat emitters and only if its below 65.
The powersun would be perfectly fine along side a reptisun t5 10.0 tube light. Your 10.0 uvb bulb is a tube light correct? If not and she hasnt had proper uvb for quite some time then the underbite may be the beginning of mbd, however i dont see much of a underbite in the pictures.
In fact its much better to have a tube light than a MVB as the MVB only stays in one place so there is no uvb anywhere else but the basking area.

So the infared is a bulb, not a light. It just emits heat. So I have that on in combination with the ubv tube that is inside her enclosure.

Her under bite is very slight.

 

[VenusAndSaturn]

Ah okay. Usually they sell "infrared" red bulbs for reptiles at night so i assumed that is what it was.
Are you using that just for night or are you using it for basking?

 

[CaramelBeet]

So the infared is a bulb, not a light. It just emits heat. So I have that on in combination with the ubv tube that is inside her enclosure.

Can you take a picture of this bulb? Infrared bulbs emit red light, which is disruptive to a dragon's sleep. If it really doesn't produce any light, then perhaps you actually have a ceramic heat emitter?

 

[pikachuomg]

It is a ceramic heat emitter hehe sorry. It says infared ceramic heat emitter. I use it for basking, so it is on with the 12 hr cycle along with the uvb 10.0 tube bulb by zoomed.
Also, I do have the temp gun 35-40 degrees C when I checked earlier today.

So, she doesn't look like she is too underweight and or has MBD? I've been so worried about her since I read about it..

 

[AHBD]

Hi there, I saw the pics before they disappeared, [ they are not showing anymore ] you need to use this info to post your pics here :
https://www.beardeddragon.org/useruploads/ Then use the XIMG to upload them.

I do see the start of a slight underbite/separatin of lips but she has another problem causing lethargy and that is the lights. She needs a bright basking bulb for daytime along with a good uvb bulb. If they are in the same fixture then the uvb is going to be a coil or compact. These are O.K. at short distances but don't provide a big enough area of strong uvb for the baby. They need good uvb to absorb calcium. The uvb should be a Reptisun 10.0 [ preferably a t5 ] long bulb or an Arcadia 12-14% D3 long tube uvb.

The CHE is for night heat, a tank with a CHE is not bright enough ,a beardie needs a bright white light to simulate it's natural sunny environment.

 

[pikachuomg]

150W 110V Ceramic Infrared Heat Emitter Brooder Coop Pet Infrared Lamp Bulb, Black
Alongside with
Zoo Med Repti Sun 10.0 UVB .
The uvb is placed inside her enclosure and has a super bright light. It is used in combination with the heat emitter which is a different bulb placed on top of the enclosure (on the screen), that doesn't provide any light.
I can put in the 100 watt powersun instead of the heat emitter if she needs an ADDITIONAL light source in conjunction with the, extremely bright, uvb tube located inside her enclosure.

I just don't want to bombard her with light.. Again, I just want to reiterate there is a source of light from the 10.0 reptisun which is EXTREMELY bright. She needs, in addition to that, a basking light?

 

[EllenD]

It does look like the start of MBD, probably due to inadequate UVB light and having it set-up incorrectly...

She only needs 2 total lights, that's it. No CHE at all. Dragons need 13-14 hours at least every day of a bright white colored Basking Bulb, which is the proper wattage to get the 3 temperature zones inside her tank within the correct temperature ranges, and then a long UVb tube, at least 18" long or longer. That's it. The CHE is totally unnecessary unless your house drops below 60 degrees at nighttime only. That's it. A CHE is not at all a replacement for the correct wattage of bright white Basking Bulb, as Dragons get all of their heat from ABOVE them, so no CHE and no heat mat at all needed. All you want is one single, proper wattage, bright white Basking Bulb, and for a 40 Gallon Breeder tank you should only need a 100 watt or at most a 125 watt bright white Basking Bulb or regular, household, Halogen Indoor Flood Bulb, like you buy at Lowes. That's it.

At nighttime they like it Pitch-Black and considerably cooler than the daytime temps. Just like the Australian Desert they come from. So as long as his nighttime temperature inside the tank is at least 65 degrees, which is where he would want it to be because he'll sleep more soundly at that cooler temperature, then you need no nighttime heat source at all.

Your goal with his lighting (and to prevent and start to try to reverse the MBD) is to replicate natural sunlight overtop of the Hot Side of his tank for at least 13-14 hours minimum every single day. You do this by putting an adequate wattage, bright white colored Basking Bulb right alongside a long, adequate strength UVB tube, both of them right next to each other and over the Hot Side of his tank. Then you must move whatever you use for his Basking Spot/Platform directly underneath both lights on the Hot Side of the tank, so he gets both lights at the same time while he's basking. Again, these lights must both be on for at least 14 hours a day, every day. Then turn both out at bedtime so that it's Pitch-Black and cool at night.

Your Reptisun 10.0 UVB light, is it a long, at least 18" tube inside a matching length tube fixture? Or is it the Compact/Spiral version that fits into a normal lightbulb socket, like in a clamp lamp or a dome lamp? If it's not the long tube version that is at least 18" long, then you are not using an adequate UVB light for a Bearded Dragon. Some people get confused about the difference. The compact/coil version of the Reptisun 10.0 is totally inadequate for any desert reptile, as it's only 13 watts and does not get reflected throughout the tank. Also, if it's sitting on top of a mesh lid, which is blocking 40% of the UVB light emitted by it, then he's been getting no UVB light at all from the already far too weak UVB bulb, and that's your issue.

If you do have the long tube version of the Reptisun 10.0 UVB tube, at least 18" long, then you have to look at which strength UVB tube you have: is it the weaker T8 strength or the much stronger T5 strength? If it's the weaker T8 strength (this is the one sold in Petco and PetSmart in the 18" tube), then you must ensure that you have it mounted UNDERNEATH the mesh lid of the tank, as it's not strong enough to penetrate through the mesh lid adequately to your dragon. So if you have it sitting on top of the mesh lid, that's problem #1. Then, you must also ensure that if you have the weaker T8 UVB tube that his Basking Spot/Platform is within at least 6" or less of the unobstructed T8 UVB tube, because any further away and no UVB light is getting to your dragon. In addition, the much weaker T8 UVB tubes must all be replaced once every 6 months like clockwork, as they have a very fast UVB decay rate, and at 6 months old the T8 strength UVB tubes stop emitting any and all UVB light. The tube won't be burnt-out at that point and it will still light up, but it won't be emitting any UVB light at all and must be replaced at every 6 month interval (based on it being on for at least 10 hours every day).

Your dragon already has the start of MBD, so the question is "How can the MBD be stopped and also possibly reversed?" The best advice I can give you (as the adopter of an 8 month old male dragon who never had any UVB light at all prior to me adopting him) is to buy the best possible UVB tube that you can (meaning the strongest and most effective) and having it set-up properly and on for at least 14 hours every day, and also to be sure to be adequately supplementing his diet with both a high-quality, reptile grade Calcium supplement and a Multivitamin Supplement.

You'll not only do him a favor if you buy a T5-strength UVB tube and matching T5-rated fixture, but you'll save a lot of money as well, because the T5 UVB tubes only need to be replaced once every year instead of once every 6 months. In fact, if you order both the 22" Reptisun 10.0 T5 High-Output UVB tube ($23 on Amazon.com) and a matching 24", T5-rated tube fixture for it that also includes a Metal Reflector with it (very important), and you order them both as a Package-Deal on Amazon.com, you can buy both for under $50 shipped. As I already mentioned, the T5 UVB tube only needs replaced once a year as opposed to every 6 months for the T8 tube, and the T5 tube also only has to be within at least 11" of his Basking Spot/Platform, instead of having to be within at least 6" like the T8 tube. Also, the T5 tubes can sit on top of the mesh lid and still penetrated adequate UVb light to your dragon, while the mesh lid blocks pretty much all adequate UVB light from a T8 tube...

 

[pikachuomg]

So, i'll link what I bought on amazon so there is no confusion.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009YJ3BE/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
long tube zoomed reptisun uvb placed INSIDE her encloser along the back top.

On TOP of the mesh lid of the enclosure sits the ceramic heat emitter.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HFNZ59Q/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


I also have the 100 watt powersun by zoomed, that I can switch with the ceramic heat emitter, but it doesn't provide that much heat from what I noticed..
https://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-PowerSun-Mercury-Vapor/dp/B0002AQDJK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1512929017&sr=8-1&keywords=power+sun+zoo+med


Why does there need to be additional lighting IN ADDITION to the light source from the UBV bulb? The sun provides UVB, heat, and light. In this case, there is uvb and light from the reptisun tube inside her enclosure, and a heat source for basking provided by the ceramic heat emitter located on top of her enclosure.

Also, in the case of trying to reverse MBD, should i change her light schedule from 12-12 to 14-10?

 

[VenusAndSaturn]

Its not exactly about the lighting, its about the temperature gradients, however with a regular heat bulb it does make the enclosure more brighter which is more beneficial. But anyway with just a simple CHE it doesnt make the proper temperature gradients needed. They project heat in almost just a narrow wave you could say while the heat bulbs spread it out evenly from what ive noticed.

 

[pikachuomg]

From when I take the temperature inside of the enclose all around her warm side, it is 95-103 with the CHE, however with the powersun the temperature is around 91-98. I used a temp gun to measure the temp.

I would upload more pictures, but this website feels pretty complicated for uploads >_<

 

[pikachuomg]

I figured it out
Here is her setup with the powersun and uvb tube in

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

That does look like MBD starting, but with better UVB lighting & supplementation, hopefully
she will start to recover. Even though you have been giving calcium, if they don't have the
proper UVB exposure she wont be able to absorb calcium at all.
The tube UVB placement is important. I noticed that it was mounted on the back wall? I
would highly recommend that it be mounted directly overhead so that the UVB reflects
straight downward onto your dragon. When the light is mounted on a wall, the light doesn't
reflect downward, but outward & away from your dragon.
Let us know how everything is going.

Tracie

 

[EllenD]

I apologize, I didn't realize you had a Powersun, which is a MVB, I thought you just had a regular basking bulb in addition to the UVB tube. However, the Powersun obviously isn't helping her get any UVB light, with both of those lights she shouldn't have advanced MBD...

I would seriously think about getting rid of the Powersun MVB and the CHE totally, it's not helping him at all. I'd suggest buying a very strong T5 strength UVB tube (the T5 tubes only need replaced once a year, your T8 tube is much weaker and needs replaced every 6 months at the least, as it stops emitting any UVB light at that point). The Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVB tube or the Arcadia 12% T5 UVB tube are the best you can buy for a dragon, and he obviously needs more UVb than the Powersun and the T8 tube are providing.

If you go to a much simpler set-up, a 22" Reptisun 10.0 T5HO UVB tube and a 24" T5-rated tube fixture, and then just buy a single, 100 watt, bright white basking bulb, and have only these 2 lights over his Hot Side, right alongside each other, he will get ample UVB light and bright white basking light, along with correct temperature zones. The setup with the MVB, the weak T8 tube, and then a CHE isn't working, and he needs stronger UVB light than he's getting.