Does anyone recognize these symptoms?

[causeascene203]

I am already in contact with Tracie regarding this dragon. This was not originally my dragon, it came into my possession very recently. I wanted to see if anyone else had any thoughts or if anyone has had a similar experience, as I have not seen this before. Does anyone else think this looks like something other than MBD?

Details:
6.5 inches, 10g.
Diagnosed with MBD, related fracture on left hind
Prescribed .1cc calcium glubionate for 30 days
Will eat chicken baby food slurry.


Symptoms all began after treatment with calcium glubionate:
Twisted, crooked movements. Sudden, robotic head movements. Stargazing while basking. Off balance, turns nearly upside-down to eat, needs her food to be brought to her, but does not need to be handfed. Will fall over when moving, basking, etc. Can walk and can straighten out spine, so it's not a skeletal defect. Seems strictly neurological.

Prior to calcium glubionate administration:
Weakened grip, fracture in left hind, general weakness and dragging of limbs.

ReptiSun10, Repticarpet liner, 80 degrees cool side, 111 degree bask. 30-45 minute soak in warm water daily to help remove problematic shedding area on left hind foot and tip of tail. Eating Phoenix worms, kale, and a chicken babyfood slurry. Herptivite supplement twice weekly in addition to oral administration of .1cc calcium glubionate daily. Very skinny.

No clicking, defecating regularly, while belly and beard 100% of the time. A very good-natured little girl. If she's in any discomfort, she's certainly not showing it.

Has anyone encountered anything that looks like this?

 

[diamc]

OH, she's a real sweetie. Sorry she has so many symptoms going on. Does sound like MBD and either something neurological or an inner ear imbalance to me. Any idea what UVB she was under previously?

One thing I noticed is that the only green you posted was kale. You might want to consider offering some other greens from the beautiful dragons list as kale can deplete the absorbance of the calcium intake.

Please keep us posted on her.

 

[causeascene203]

She was under a compact Reptiglo. I have no idea which one. :roll:

I'm hoping the entire problem will go away after the calcium glubionate treatment is finished. I worry though, because I've treated MBD before, and I've never seen this. They don't look like those tetanic seizures that usually come with calcium deficiency. She looks like she's really drunk. If it is MBD related, why did the neurological symptoms appear after giving her the calcium glubionate?

Is there a way to tell if it is an ear infection instead of some other neurological problem?

I generally feed all my dragons a combination of collards, kale, mustard, and turnip greens. It just so happens that the kale is the only thing left in the fridge at the moment. I've only had her here for about 3 or 4 days.

 

[diamc]

Well, if it was a compact UVB, that could have attributed to the neurological symptoms. Did the vet prescribe the calcium glubionate? Perhaps cutting the dosage down would make a difference. If the vet did prescribe it, did you mention these new symptoms to him?

The only way that you would be able to tell if there is an inner ear problem, is to have a vet look in her ears.

Sorry, I didn't realize that you usually feed those other greens too, I just didn't want to leave out that info in case you didn't know.

 

[causeascene203]

It's all good.

A vet did prescribe the calcium glubionate. She has an appointment with my own vet in 2 weeks. I do feel that she does have low calcium, so I am hesitant to take her off the calcium completely. I will cut the dose in half and see if the symptoms improve. Maybe the dose is just too high. I called him and mentioned these symptoms, and he was unaware of them at the time of the visit, and didn't notice them. I don't entirely trust his judgment and I would rather her see my own vet. (I called about getting an adeno test done, and the entire office was unaware that dragons can even have adeno.) I am starting to think this was possibly caused by some head trauma or water getting into the ears during a bath that was too deep for her just before she came here, as the symptoms apparently started soon after. The more I look at it, the more it looks like it might be an ear infection.

Oral Baytril is generally the treatment for an inner ear infection instead of the Baytril injection, correct? And Benebac should help reduce the harsh side-effects? I want to make sure we don't take the wrong course of treatment.

 

[Drache613]

Hello Krista,

I thought I would weigh in on your thread also.

It is a possibility of an ear infection, especially if they were not careful when they bathed them. I hope that it is not a head trauma because that would not be good at all.

How much does she weigh? I want to make sure she is not getting too much calcium either. Do you give it 5 times per week?

Yes, Baytril would be the drug of choice for an ear infection. It should be given at 5mg/kg of bodyweight for her, which would not be much. The benebac, nutribac, acidophiliz, or non dairy soy yogurt are all good probiotic choices.

Tracie

 

[causeascene203]

She's 10g.

The vet's sheet said ".1cc of calcium glubionate for 15 days, then .05cc for 15 days." I know that she was getting .1cc every day, twice a day when she was under that Reptiglo compact. I'm giving it to her every other day, along with the Phoenix worms and a little sprinkle of RepCal and D3 on her salad. That combination has worked for me numerous times in the past with other reptiles suffering from calcium problems. The MBD symptoms appear to be much improved with her under the ReptiSun 10, and I at first thought the balance problems were caused by hypercalcemia. It appears to be worsening daily under my care, even with the reduction in the calcium glubionate. I'll be making an emergency vet appointment to have her check for infections. I'll let you know what I find out.

(I'm also going to see if I can figure out how to post a video of the way she moves. It is so odd and I would like you all to see it.)

 

[causeascene203]

This poor little dragon baby is just deteriorating every day. My vet can not fit me in earlier. I fear she might not live to the appointment.

I'm syringe feeding her water and a babyfood slurry. She did not touch her worms today.

I came in today and she was on her side. Her head is tilted to the left and her entire body falls inward (to the left) to form a semicircle. She is so badly off that her left front foot treads upon her left hind foot as she makes these circles. Her left limbs don't push the left side of her body off the ground.
(The right hind foot is the one that has the suspected MBD fracture.)

She always seems to look a bit better 10 minutes following her calcium glubionate, but then deteriorates again. I am aware that this calcium glubionate has some type of flavoring or sweetener. A hypogylcemic dragon? Still a result of hypocalcemia? I won't know until I can get her into the vet's office.

I have decided that the likelyhood of this dragon testing positive for adeno is almost certain. This dragon was purchased 6 weeks ago from a large pet-store chain and is from a breeder known to have adeno in their colonies. If the dragon was not shipped to the store already positive, it's likely that she contracted the virus from being housed under poor husbandry and the unsanitary conditions typical for this chain. If this illness is the result of adeno, I am quite sure that this baby is not going to make it. It's a shame: she is beautifully colored and is one of the most pleasantly dispositioned dragons that I have ever worked with. I'm still hoping she'll pull though, but I am seriously doubtful.

Anything I can do to make her more comfortable?

 

[diamc]

I'm sorry to hear that she has gotten worse. I suggest you call your vet's office tomorrow and insist that she be seen and be sure to be as detailed as you were in this thread. Perhaps giving her some diluted Pedialyte would be a good idea. Is she eating much of the baby food slurry for you? Is she eating anything on her own now?

 

[causeascene203]

Oh believe me I did. The vet had surgeries lined up until Friday, and then is on vacation next week. He can't fit me in until the 15th. I plan on talking to the other receptionist to see if she can put me in tomorrow. I will keep calling! I even called the vet that she had originally gone to. They're stupid, but at least she'd have a chance. (This is the vet who didn't know adeno existed when I asked.)

She's not eating on her own, she needs to be handfed. She didn't eat any worms today no matter how many times I offered. She took about .4ml of the babyfood slurry today, and wouldn't take anymore. Her lights are off now, but she looks just horrible.

Let's pretend this is an ear infection. What are her chances of living long enough to see the vet? When treated with Baytril, what are the chances that the antibiotics are going to send her even further downhill? Will she recover, either fully or partially?

I guess I could use a list of things that can cause this so I can bring it to the inexperienced vet. So far I have:
Adenovirus (Do you know why? Can this symptom be treated?)
Dehydration
Nutrient imbalances (We know she is hypocalcemic.)
Malnutrition
Overheating
Ear infections

Goodness, this is so stressful for me.

 

[causeascene203]

This is her right now-

 

[diamc]

Wow, only 10 grams, she sure is tiny. By looking at her eye wide open, it seems like she feels dizzy and that indeed could be from an inner ear infection. I sure hope they will see her tomorrow, she needs to be assessed and helped. If she does need to go on an antibiotic, it would be necessary to give a probiotic like Acidophilis, soy yogurt, or Benebac to help counteract the affects of the antibiotics killing off the good gut flora. Sometimes there are drops that can be used in the ears rather than liquid antibiotics or injections. A B-12 injection might really help her out too.

Unfortunately, there is no cure for Adeno virus. It compromises the immune system which makes it hard for them to fight off infections. So, any treatment would be for the other illnesses and to help keep them under control.

I really hope they will see her tomorrow, just keep calling and don't leave anything out. Be sure to let them know that she is going downhill daily and you're not sure she will be able to wait for 2 wks. (not trying to scare you, it's necessary to be very abrupt with doctors and vets sometimes in order to be heard.)

 

[Drache613]

Hello Krista,

How is your baby doing this evening? Wow she sure is leaning though. Poor girl!
You said that she seemed to do better immediately following the glubionate?
Let's try giving her a bit of juice a couple of times per day full strength, to see if that helps out a little bit.
There have been a few cases of dragons with low blood sugar, for whatever reason. She is too small to get a blood draw from though. Can you see what color her gums are, by any chance?
I am sorry she is not doing very well. Continue to keep her comfortable that is all you can do right now. I hope that she will make it until the vet's appointment.
Inner ear infections can really affect balance. The baytril would definitely kick it. She would probably tolerate it just fine as long as you used a probiotic. As Diane suggested, there are drops that can be used instead of oral antibiotics.

Keep us posted on her.
Tracie

 

[haleygirl272]

Aw poor baby! I hope he or she gets better! That sounds an AWFUL lot like an inner ear infection to me. That can give some serious vertigo! I hope it's something little and very treatable.

 

[diamc]

Good luck Krista, we will be waiting for an update tomorrow.