Culling and Ethics

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RedInkAus

Hatchling Member
Hi Guys,

What's the stance on this??
If the mating was successful but we have obviously noticed some defects in the hatchlings
DO WE:

BREEDERS
I) Not worry about it, business as usuall?
II) Do we not repeat that mating and take the genetic weakness out of the line??
III) Do we repeat the mating and put a new spin on it and call it a new morph??
VI) Repeat the mating hoping it was a one off to make sure??

HATCHLINGS
I) Business as usuall at a reduced price??
II) Cull the defective ones and salvage the good ones??
III) Call it a new morph and jack up the price??
VI) Cull the whole line to prevent the spread of deficiencies??
 

spyder79

Extreme Poster
I would have to go with option 4

I would cull the severly defficient animals (the ones that could not live a comfortable and normal life) and freeze any clutches after for that season, retry the pairing the next season (keeping a close eye on incubation temps and humidity levels to make certain to remove as much "human error" as possible) and if it happened again i would never pair that male and female again. I would, the next season, breed the two dragons to a different male and female to see if it was a result of their pairing or if one of the two carries a genetic defect it will pass no matter. If so that dragon would be retired.
 

TheWolfmanTom

Extreme Poster
Didnt I answer this already???...lol
Ok I have been very fortunate in this area. Last year I only had to cull 2 and this year only 1 so far. The babys hatched with deformities that it would not be able to live with. All the other clutches where fine and the babys grew normally.
 
I am yet to hatch my first egg but my instincts and gut feeling would tell me to re-check my temps etc to rule out human error whilst repeating the pairing and then pairing the parents with different mates to try and get some more info on it before retiring the breeders.

I would cull any babies with defects - there are so many healthy beardies out and we cannot tell how else they are affected/in pain so imo it would just be cruel to keep these alive.

Any remaining babies would be a difficult decision, homing them as pets only never to be bred from i have a feeling would not work so disposing of these too would be a concideration although i cannot say for sure what i would do until i was put in that situation.

Will read on with an open mind...........
 
... I think I get the idea of what culling is... But I am curious as to how you would humanely go about this act. Sorry this is the first I have heard of it, I am a noob.
 

spyder79

Extreme Poster
That will all depend on what you consider humane and its a reason as to why culling in itself is a very "hot topic" typically

here is a write up from http://www.anapsid.org/euth.html

Euthanasia of reptiles

Stephen L. Barten DVM, News from the North Bay, Feb 1994



Euthanasia, the act of humanely killing animals that are hopelessly sick or injured, is a controversial topic. Some people, including animals rights advocates, don't believe euthanasia should ever be performed, regardless of the circumstances. However, many of these same people also oppose other things that herpetologists traditionally do: the keeping of animals in cages, feeding of prey items (rodents, poultry, fish, insects) to carnivorous reptiles and the collection of animals from the wild. (I often wonder if animals rights activists oppose giving a dog a flea bath or treating it for worms, because that would violate the rights of the parasites.)

Most herpetologists and veterinarians alike are strong supporters of animal welfare rather than animal rights--believing that animals may be kept as pets, kept in zoos and used for food and research, but it is our moral obligation to provide them with optimum captive conditions, balanced diets, pay attention to their behavioral needs and keep them from pain and suffering. Occasions arise when the only way to alleviate pain and suffering is to humanely euthanize captive herps. These may include irreversible illness or injury, sacrificing a small number of a larger group to diagnose a disease outbreak or culling an overcrowded collection. Many prey animals, especially rodents, are euthanized prior to feeding them to captive reptiles. This is a special circumstance in that chemical agents should not be used or the reptile eating the euthanized rodent could suffer toxic affects. When euthanasia is performed it must be performed in a humane manner.

Decapitation is an easy way to kill a reptile in that no special equipment or drugs are necessary. Nevertheless, the brain of a decapitated reptile may remain active for up to an hour, so decapitation by itself is inhumane. It may be used if the brain is pithed, or destroyed by the insertion of a probe, immediately afterwards. Some of you may have pithed leopard frogs in high school biology prior to their dissection.

Euthanasia can be done by destroying the brain with a sharp blow to the head, on the middle and just posterior to the eyes. This can be done in an emergency, as when an animal is found hit by a car, grievously injured but not yet dead and no other method is available. This is among the most common methods of euthanizing feeder rodents. Care must be taken to perform this method properly, as a soft or misdirected blow could injure the patient without killing it. Large reptiles (crocodiles, monitors and big tortoises) can be killed with a gunshot of appropriate caliber to the brain.

Inhalation of various gasses can be used to euthanize animals. Some of the gasses that might be used are chloroform, methoxyflurane and carbon monoxide, among others. Disadvantages of this method include the need for some means to deliver the gas to an enclosed chamber holding the patient, the potential risk to the person if improper equipment is used and the difficulty in obtaining some of those agents. I once read a report of rats killed with chloroform causing sedation in the snake that ate him. This method is useful for venomous snakes in that no handling is necessary.

Freezing has been used as a humane method to kill small reptiles under one pound in weight. Although low temperatures do result in a state of torpor, the formation of ice crystals in the tissue is quite painful. Freezing should only be done to anesthetized animals.

The preferred method of performing euthanasia is the injection of barbiturates into a vein or into the coelomic cavity. This is how dogs and cats are euthanized when it is necessary. The technique is quick and painless, taking only minutes to perform by the intravenous route but up to several hours by the intracoelomic route. The later route should not be used if a post-mortem examination is planned. Barbiturates are controlled substances and must be administered by licensed veterinarians. Aggressive, dangerous or difficult patients may be sedated either by injection or with anesthesia prior to euthanizing. Injectable agents should not be used on animals intended for food.

In a perfect world euthanasia would never be necessary. Since it sometimes is, the goal of this column is to promote the use of humane methods and to educate readers that some commonly used methods, such as freezing and decapitation, are inappropriate.


Steve Barten, DVM, is a noted reptile veterinarian is, when he is not writing about reptile and other exotic veterinary medicine, or teaching and lecturing at veterinary conferences, in exotics practice in Mundelein, IL.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The following references on euthanasia are cited in the chapter on euthanasia in Manual of Reptiles (1992. Peter Benyon, Martin Lawton, John Cooper (eds.). Iowa State University, Ames, IA):

JE Cooper, R Ewbank, C Platt, C Warwick (eds). 1989. Euthanasia of Amphibians and Reptiles. University Federation for Animal Welfare, Potters Bar.
JE Cooper, R Ewbank, ME Rosenberg. 1984. Euthanasia of tortoises. Veterinary Record, 114, 635.
FL Frye. Euthanasia, necropsy techniques and comparative histology of reptiles. In, Diseases of Amphibians and Reptiles. Eds. GL Hoff, FL Frye, ER Jacobson, Plenum Press, NY.
H Hillman. 1978. Humane killing of animals for medical experiments. World Medical Journal, 25(5):68.
 
Wow thank you so much for responding with that, it was very informative. I see how it is a controversial topic too. It is sad, but also necessary sometimes.. Thanks again
 

citrusdragon

Sub-Adult Member
My experience says the inferior don't make it past the first 8 weeks anyway. If they require special care to reach that point, it generally doesn't get better further down the line. I think there are some morphs that are more prone to dehydration (trans and leather) which appears to me to be the reason why some babies don't make it. In the case of birth defects, I think if you produce enough, you will see some as genetic flukes. Bad eggs can be from a lot of things: the male sperm, to egg follicles to the conditions in the incubator. An unsuccessful breeding is okay to try again, the proof will be in the offspring as to whether the genetics are sound.

As for the "culling" of the weak, or deformed, it happens in the wild everyday. While I am a "right-to-life" advocate for people, I extend no such rights to animals.

I know this is an emotional topic for some, but the health of the specie relies on breeders to use good judgment when passing on the bloodlines they produce to the public.

Jeff Crider
 
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