Concerned mommy please read!

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MissCutiePatootie

Hatchling Member
I'm not sure where to start... I have a lot of questions.

I guess I'll start with describing my setup.
I have a 40 gallon breeder w/non adhesive shelf liner as substrate.
A fluorescent UVB arcadia 12% bulb, two old 100 watt powersun MVBs for basking heat only (one is turned off due to summer heat) and a CHE for night time use only.
Two hides on both ends of tank.

My dragons name is Malachi, he is 9 months old, spoiled with a varied diet consisting mostly of dubia, superworms, crickets, BSFL, hornworms, silkworms and wax worms... collard/mustard/turnip greens, kale, spinach, arugula, squashes, carrots, and sometimes a little fruit like apple, grape, blueberry or strawberry and pieces of watermelon for hydration on really hot days. For supplements, I have spirulina, serrapeptase, electrolytes, probiotics, liquid calcium, calcium powder w/d3, multivitamins. I typically dust with calcium 3-4x weekly and multivitamin 2x weekly. I dust with probiotics regularly twice a week just because I can. I sprinkle spirulina on every other salad about. On super hot days I give him some water with some electrolytes. Once in a while I'll give him some liquid calcium and serrapeptase.

OK so, first question I will start with... a few weeks ago, up to a month and a half ago even, I noticed his urates looking partially normal and partially like applesauce? I asked my mentor about it and was told it was probably a mild bladder infection due to him reaching sexual maturity and that it wasn't uncommon in male beardies when hitting that stage in their life. I was told to supplement with a few drops of unsweetened cranberry juice mixed with water and to cut back on calcium with light dusting and it should do the trick. And it did! Malachi is 20 inches long and about 470 grams and 9 months old. Has anyone else dealt with UTIs in beardies? It was the first I've ever heard about it. I figure it may be a combination of UTI and maybe just too much calcium too. Either way, that issue has been fixed judging by his urates.

About a month ago during on and off heatwaves I turned off one basking bulb and the nighttime CHE because it was too hot for them. His basking spot remained at about 100-113F. Growing up he always liked the higher end of temperatures for basking and I wonder if he still prefers it? It's difficult to keep temperatures constant right now because I don't have air conditioning to keep a constant ambient temperature. I provided a shallow pool of water on the cool end to provide a means of cooling off during the hottest parts of the day on days I was unable to be around to monitor the temperatures closely. The humidity never went above 35-40%. Which was great! Lol. The night time temperatures have dropped to the low 60s so I've turned his CHE back on yesterday.

Now, more recently, say... a week maybe? My days blur together recently so I'm not exact on my time line. His coloration is more dull. He's not black bearding but, sometimes I walk in the room and he's his nice beautiful super citrus self hanging out on the cool end of his home or sometimes on his basking hide and other times he will be hiding under his rock on the hot end looking apathetic and dull with some light yellow stress marks that only go away when I hold him or occasionally when he is chilling on his cool end. He seems to nap under his hides on and off throughout the day.

He hasn't been enthusiastic over his roaches or crickets which he used to love. All I have right now beside those two are superworms and waxworms. Those he will eat but not nearly as much as I know he can... he had a ferocious apatite his first 6 months and then started slowing down and showing more preference to his veggies. I'm assuming because he was 18 inches long by then and his growth was slowing down.

About a week and a half ago, I was feeding off my excess male dubia from my colony to him and a couple days later I noticed undigested parts of dubia in his feces so I cut back on that and just fed him crickets which then I noticed were only partially digested as well. And now, because I can only get him to eat superworms, of course I see their tough broken up chitin shells in his feces when I break it apart too. His feces is well formed though wrapped in mucus with excess fluids excreted with it. I'm wondering parasites? I don't have money for a vet trip right now. But I do have reptaid on hand. Which leads me to my next question..

Do you think reptaid could help what's going on right now? What are your thoughts on the situation? Prognosis? I've already started him on the reptaid about 3 days ago. I've also been pairing it up with manuka honey mixed with water, probiotics and spirulina to keep him hydrated during the course of reptaid in hopes to help sooth his tummy and increase apatite. I'm lucky he laps everything up from a needless syringe. Haven't had to pry his mouth open for any of it. He's a good boy. I just want to make sure I'm doing everything I can for him right now.

Now, apart from all of the above, I have one more question in mind...
The first day I got Malachi, shipped from a breeder in Florida, at 6 weeks old 6.5 inches, he's had droopy eyelids. The "blood hound eyes" thing. I did some looking into it in the past and seen that in most cases of baby dragons with droopy eyes it's more than likely cosmetic than any serious health issue and to only be real concerned if it's a new occurrence in an adult. Anyone care to shed some light on this for me? I feel like even if it's most likely cosmetic that I should have tests ran on him to check his organ function. I feel paranoid having that in the back of my mind every time I notice it. I don't know if his genes could have anything to do with it but just in case I'll throw it out there and say he's a super citrus partial translucent 66% het hypo. Which also reminds me, is it normal for dragons to develop bright colors on individual scales? Almost like getting a freckle? My boy has a couple bright neon orange scales and then he has a couple black scales and they never change.

Sorry for it being so long! I really hope I still get the answers to my questions. Thank you for reading! :p
 

Gail

BD.org Addict
Its possible the temps are a bit too high for a adult and thats why he's been hiding out more. I usually run 95-100 for adults.

There is no reason to offer electrolytes unless he is obviously dehydrated, they don't sweat out excess minerals like we do when its hot. Just make sure he is getting enough to drink on especially hot days.

It pretty common to see bits of undigested chitin in the poo, especially when they are eating larger adult insects. You can give probiotics everyday for awhile, see if that might help some. With all the different supplements you are giving, I have to wonder if you are overloading his system.

According to this https://books.google.com/books?id=llBcBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=do+bearded+dragons+have+urinary+bladders&source=bl&ots=ofC1wwXfv6&sig=s-Y6DP0nyTFttwkRf3d6yiyX9Nw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8lSdVavUEtbSoASN1bKoBg&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=do%20bearded%20dragons%20have%20urinary%20bladders&f=false
beardies do not have bladders. I would guess what you saw was the beginning of calcium overload. I would stop the liquid calcium altogether unless he has a history of MBD or low blood calcium.

Adults don't eat like juvies and as big as he is, he probably doesn't need insects everyday. How much is eating on average?
Too much fruit can cause yeast trouble in the guts, maybe stop the fruit for awhile and see if that might help. I'd stop the honey too, dragons can't deal with that much sugar.

Some dragons have droopy eyelids. Since he has had it from the beginning, I would guess its just cosmetic. Its when a dragon suddenly gets droopy eyed that you would worry.

The colored scales is normal. I had a yellow male that had one neon orange scale on his head, looked like a child took a marker to him.
The color changes are normal too. They change with mood or tempts. I wouldn't worry unless he was constantly hiding or always has a black beard.

If you do have his blood tested, make sure they check calcium and other minerals.
 

MissCutiePatootie

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
Thank you for responding Gail! :) It's great to get more educated opinions!

I'll try to get the temperatures lowered and see how he reacts!
I'll keep in mind he may not need the extra electrolytes too!
I'll continue to give probiotics to maybe improve his apatite that to me seems off.

He hasn't had any fruit for a few weeks and before that a few weeks. I stick to veggies mostly.
It depends what I have on hand at the time. He will normally eat 35-40 adult crickets, 3-5 superworms and 10-20 medium dubia and some days he prefers one over the other. Now, he will only eat a few superworms.
He would clear his salad by the end of the day too but only takes a few bites now. Because of that he will only poop when I stimulate him in the bath or every few days. He's not impacted.

I realize the list of supplements I have sounds like a lot.
I admit to over dusting with calcium in the past though!
The liquid calcium and serrapeptase was being used once a month. From my understanding, spirulina is safe to give regularly and good for them for extra protein and b vitamins. Tell me if I'm wrong please.
I was told by many and read manuka honey has many benefits to bearded dragons and is safe to use? The manuka honey isn't a regular thing given to him either.

I suspected the case with his urates was from overdoing it with the calcium.
That's what I expected to hear from my mentor and when they mentioned UTI too I was surprised! Never heard of a reptile getting a UTI. Thought I'd ask. :)

Thanks you for confirming the cosmetic droopy eye thingy. :p I may still get blood work done in the future when I can comfortably afford to or in case of emergency of course!

The colored individual scales I was wondering about seem funny to me. My boy developed them when he was 5-6 months old. He has them on his head, side of tail and neck/upper back. I'm curious about them because they never change color or brightness.

Care to touch thoughts on Reptaid use?

Thank you again Gail for taking the time to answer my questions and easing my mind a bit! I appreciate it hun! :)
 

Gail

BD.org Addict
I don't know much about spirulena nutrition so I can't really comment on that. I don't see how it could hurt though. Honey would be good for a sick/weak dragon or for wounds but I thinks its unnecessary as a supplement or to try and settle a tummy. I love honey but it irritates the heck out of my gastritis

The reptaid is safe but honestly, I don't know how affective it is. I buy panacure paste and deworm my dragon 2-3 times a year as a preventive. Its a very mild medicine and won't harm your dragon unless you fed him a huge amount.
I would start offering him 5 supers every other day, I would think he is getting too much protein for his age. Lowering the protein might get him interested in veggies again. I wouldn't worry too much about his appetite unless he is loosing weight.

Having a fecal done is always a good choice if you feel there is something really off with him. Bathroom habits change when they get older too, it common for them to go a few days in between.
 

MissCutiePatootie

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
The last time he got Panacur and Toltrazuril was 3 months ago. I suppose I could just go that route again as a preventative measure if parasites aren't the cause even. I'll have to wait till next pay day.

Thanks again for all the help and advice Gail! :D
 

MissCutiePatootie

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
Few pics of my boy Malachi I took during yesterdays bath to add to the post. :)

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Gail

BD.org Addict
After seeing those pics, I wouldn't give him any wormer. He is quite chunky and is probably eating less because he doesn't need all the excess calories and his body knows it.
 

MissCutiePatootie

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
Yeah he's a strong, big boy for sure! His feeding response changed so sudden it makes me worry. His apatite was perfect and strong that very little ever goes to waste.

But yeah, it could just be because of his size already as you were saying. I rather be sure it's not parasites though as the past 3 month he's eaten a few thousand crickets from a couple different sources as a temporary cheap filler in his diet so I could build up my roach colony and I know crickets are notorious for pinworms.

I dont think deworming him is a bad idea. It won't hurt him like you said. And I just finished the last of the crickets and won't be using them anymore. It makes sense to me to deworm again since from here on out his exposure to higher risk of infestation is lowered. Besides, it's recommended to deworm 2-3x a year anyway and this will be his 2nd.
 

MissCutiePatootie

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
He appears bloated because of the extra fluids he's been getting and because he was just pulled out of the bath. He doesn't like taking baths much and always tries to get out. They naturally puff themselves up with air in the bath to float.

He's not gravid lol :lol:

In the second picture he was leaning backwards resting his gut on my hand and pushing it forward giving it that effect.

I'll try to get more pictures later today to show you the difference.
 

MissCutiePatootie

Hatchling Member
Original Poster
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Malachi1.jpg

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20150709_182417_2.jpg


Not so fired up from bath time in these pics! :p
You can see the yellow stress marks I spoke of and he can be a bit duller/muddy looking than this. After about 10 minutes of handling the stress marks go away and sometimes he brightens up even. Other times he gets darker. Just depends on how he's feelin.
 
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