Clay Substrates and Mixes?

[SoonerThunderDad]

Some of my local reptile stores have been telling me about clay substrates and 'tier/level' mixes and I was wondering how many have used this approach. I was told that there are a few ways to go about it but these seemed to be the two that stuck in my head.

First is the 80/20 mix of clay substrate/topsoil for the full enclosure with optional 'light' sand dusting on the very top which is supposed to be the most realistic to their nature environment.

Next was a 2 layered mix (layer ratio 2:1, bottom:top) with the bottom layer being 100% clay and the top layer being 60/40 of topsoil/sand. My favorite store told me of this one, they said it is near perfect for beardies (it's what they use) cause it can house various desert plants and succulents. They said if you set up a few plants in the middle of the of the enclosures temp zone that the plants would thrive even with being eaten on while creating a 'restaurant' area to place stone slates to feed on. Any excess fecal/urine liquid run off around the area creates less worry as the byproduct is converted into food for the plants requiring less frequent full substrate changes. (IF ANYONE KNOWS ANYTHING ABOUT THIS PLEASE TELL ME)

 

[CooperDragon]

I'd see these as a kind of half measure. Without the proper balance a mixture substrate could harbor bacteria, mold, etc and cause problems. If you're interested in creating a natural substrate I would look into bioactive substrate in which you create a small ecosystem that is well balanced and does well on it's own. From what I know it takes a bit of time to get set up initially and takes a bit more room because of the need for several layers. There are some folks on here who use bioactive substrate and can probably help you with the details if thats the way you want to go.

 

[Taterbug]

As cooper suggests searching for "bioactive" will net you some good info. The book "the art of keeping snakes" is also a good primer for the concep. If you don't go changing the substrate frequently it will eventually become bioactive - the bacteria and organisms are common in soils and the environment. It works like a fish tank with an ammonia cycle.

Using inverts as cleaner crew helps digest waste faster - poops on their own won't decay fast enough with just microbial activity. Superworms love poop. Lol.

I have been using bioactive for 3-4 years now and wouldn't go back unless I had too. Using "layers" takes a lot of depth. My dragon enclosure is about 10" deep and could effectively use layers but mostly to just use a uniform well draining mix. The soil settles on its own over time. I've not had luck with plants - they get trampled to much and become ugly.

If you have any questions I'd be happy to help.

 

[Spunky]

I don't know much about substrates with beardies, but have used a variety in aquariums with live plants. The only thing I can contribute is to keep in mind that the smaller substrate will inevitably fall to the bottom no matter how you layer it. Sand won't stay on the top.

 

[SoonerThunderDad]

Yeah I have a couple of aquascaped tanks, one with electric green tigers, corys and yellow glo danios with a jungle theme. The other tanks has swordtails and corys with a forrest theme. Now I am attempting to get into reptiles.

Thank you for the advise given everyone.

Tater, if I may ask, what kind of bioactive soil setup do you use? I have found a guide that uses hydroton clay balls for a drainage layer with landscaping cloth wrapped around the balls. The soil mixture is 50%topsoil, 30%playsand and 20%humis(coconut coir) with a leaf litter on top. The guide also says to use African nightcrawlers cause they clean up food left overs while keeping the soil maintained and providing an occasional tasty nutritious treat when found digging and playing.

 

[Taterbug]

Yeah I have a couple of aquascaped tanks, one with electric green tigers, corys and yellow glo danios with a jungle theme. The other tanks has swordtails and corys with a forrest theme. Now I am attempting to get into reptiles.

Thank you for the advise given everyone.

Tater, if I may ask, what kind of bioactive soil setup do you use? I have found a guide that uses hydroton clay balls for a drainage layer with landscaping cloth wrapped around the balls. The soil mixture is 50%topsoil, 30%playsand and 20%humis(coconut coir) with a leaf litter on top. The guide also says to use African nightcrawlers cause they clean up food left overs while keeping the soil maintained and providing an occasional tasty nutritious treat when found digging and playing.

That would work well, and is roughly what I use.

What I find helpful is to mix everything up in a wheelbarrow or big tub. For a dragon you don't want it too heavy (the topsoil component) or it will won't drain very well, and too much sand can make it hard to hold shape. Mix it up and you should be able to sort of pack it into balls/hold a burrow. I tamp it down when I put it in so its nice and solid and use live oak for leaf litter. I don't have any African nightcrawlers, but since some of the dirt I have is collected from outside I have found worms. My soil doesn't stay too warm so they seem to do fine. The superworms thrive in it.

I have tried several drainage layers and if you can find them clay balls are nice. I got a huge bag at a grow store and it was enough for a couple. I've also used egg crate (light diffuser) which works fine, and pea gravel which is crazy heavy but works fine.

 

[SoonerThunderDad]

I think I will try that then, using the clay balls covered with a layer of landscaping weed prevention tarp.

So I am making a custom tank, should I put a viewing window on one of the sides to keep an eye on the drainage and bottom layers? And how deep is your soil mix? I figure about 6" should be deep enough to plants to thrive.

 

[Taterbug]

A viewing window would be neat and a really helpful addition. I've seen people build them into their tanks and kinda wish I had. Mine is 6" deep.

 

[Rankins]

Seems like it would be too humid. But if its working for Tater it must not be. Seems like more of a pain in the rear to me. Washed playsand is simple and cheap. I sift out the waste daily and replace the sand every 6 months (sooner if needed). Since I have so many reptiles I like to keep things simple otherwise its overwhelming.

 

[SoonerThunderDad]

Ok Tater, I will include the side viewing window, I will waterproof seal the enclosure seams and viewing windows below ground level, and get a protective layer to keep moisture out of the wood. Do typical dragons actually burrow, or do they just dig and more stuff around?

 

[Taterbug]

Ok Tater, I will include the side viewing window, I will waterproof seal the enclosure seams and viewing windows below ground level, and get a protective layer to keep moisture out of the wood. Do typical dragons actually burrow, or do they just dig and more stuff around?

Some burrow some don't. Pepper preferred to excavate under his basking rock and hide there. Since he's been in a taller cage he doesn't dig as much.

 

[SoonerThunderDad]

Sweet, I am looking forward to getting everything ready for assembly, and cant wait to try this soil mix style. I am anticipating it will be much like aquascaping in regards to the need for patience in the initial beginning phase until I get my dragon.

With the lighting in a dragon home, is there such thing as too much lighting? My enclosure will be 60" long and 24" wide. I was going to see about mounting 2 of the reptisun 10.0 fixtures for standard light while having a few ceramic heat emitters and 2 basking light areas.

 

[Taterbug]

Sweet, I am looking forward to getting everything ready for assembly, and cant wait to try this soil mix style. I am anticipating it will be much like aquascaping in regards to the need for patience in the initial beginning phase until I get my dragon.

With the lighting in a dragon home, is there such thing as too much lighting? My enclosure will be 60" long and 24" wide. I was going to see about mounting 2 of the reptisun 10.0 fixtures for standard light while having a few ceramic heat emitters and 2 basking light areas.

Yes and no. To much UV is possible and that would be determined by cage hight. Visible light - he more the better. Even really bright enclosures are dim compared to the outside.

I would include at least a 6500K daylight fluorescent along with you basking lights. Basking lights and UV lights aren't great visually.

 

[Taterbug]

Seems like it would be too humid. But if its working for Tater it must not be. Seems like more of a pain in the rear to me. Washed playsand is simple and cheap. I sift out the waste daily and replace the sand every 6 months (sooner if needed). Since I have so many reptiles I like to keep things simple otherwise its overwhelming.

Depends on how you keep it. The dragon and hognose enclosures stay nice and arid - they have well draining soils and I water them less so humidity stays low. The ball python and corn snake have more plants and heavier soil and keep the humidity up nicely for them. It's pretty versatile.

Overall I do less cage maintenance in bio than I did when I used aspen or tile and I can have more complex and enriching enclosures since I don't have to remove 100+ lb of rocks and logs every week or so. I haven't changed the dragons substrate in the three years I've been using it. I water it every few weeks and I mix it up on occasion but waste is processed very quickly (a matter of hours for the dragon) and even leftover food is cleaned up. Regular fecals come back clear and otherwise no issues with "bacteria, fungus or parasites" has been evident.

I do have to clean up after the BP since her poops are so huge. :/ nothing is perfect.

 

[Spunky]

Yeah I have a couple of aquascaped tanks, one with electric green tigers, corys and yellow glo danios with a jungle theme. The other tanks has swordtails and corys with a forrest theme. Now I am attempting to get into reptiles.

Sorry for going OT, but do you have any pics of your electric green tiger (barbs?)? I have not been a part of the online aquatic community for ages and I don't think I have seen any of these. Are they newish?