Calcium Problems

[Venidara]

My friend gave me her three year old female beardie.
She thought she was unhealthy because she doesn't poop often, but I've heard that's fine for an adult.

I found a real problem, though.

She's lethargic, hardly eats her fruits and veggies, sometimes has no interest in her crickets either, and her limbs seem weak. I looked into it and discovered that supplementing phosphorus can cause calcium problems. I don't remember the reason. I think it was something about the phosphorus either binding to and cancelling the calcium, or a balance of the two that needed to be higher calcium than phosphorus. I'm not sure, but I do know that every source online and my pet store said it's BAD. She was using a calcium and phosphorus blend for supplementing the veggies. She also had been using a 2.0 emission UV-B light. For three years.
Since I got her a month or so ago, I've starting using my calcium +D3 powder. I sprinkle it on her veggies and dust the crickets. She gets six crickets on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, and then three each day on the weekend. Normally, I would choose one or the other, but with the calcium deficiency she seems to have, I thought it better to give her more calcium. I also got her a 10.0 bulb like my male has. Since then, she has been slowly getting stronger, eating her veggies a little more frequently, way more interested in crickets, more active, and generally seeming healthier.

I just thought I'd ask here, for now, until I can manage a vet visit (the closest vet that can care for reptiles is about a 45 minute drive away, and charges about $50 for check-up, so it's just a matter of when we have the time and money to make the trip.) if you think this is a good way to tackle the problem for now, until I can get more help, or if you'd advise anything else. Thank you!

 

[sweetiepie9]

As she's improving & it will take time for her to improve from 3 years of neglect, I think you're doing a fantastic job. Just the low UVB was bad for her, never mind the wrong calcium type. So keep doing what you're doing, you might want to give her a bit more protein, she's allowed up to 50 bugs a week as an adult, as it will help with her bones, especially if they're dusted & continue giving her calcium on her veggies, she needs to build up her bones which is what calcium does as she probably has a deficiency and probably has the beginning of metabolic bone disease, which is what the extra calcium is trying to heal. I'll bet she's pooping more often, too. You should also give her a daily bath in warm water for 20 min, as she needs the water, she's probably been dehydrated all that time, too. Luckily beardies are very hardy, so her improving under better care is not a surprise, but it sure is a great thing you're doing! Don't forget, when you do take her to the vet to take a fecal for a check as it wouldn't suprise me if she's got parasites, too. Not having the right care can cause parasites to increase in her gut.

Thanks for taking her in! And Happy New Year!
Deb

 

[Venidara]

Thank you!
I do plan on keeping fecal matter for the vet, I just want to get it closer to the vet visit, so it's fresher.
She has been pooping more, she's been leaving small poops every few days, ranging from kind of dry to average. I will try to increase her bugs. She's not interested in them lately at all. I took her out to roam, and had one in my clamp for about five or ten minutes trying to get her to go for it, but she just wouldn't. :/ I've asked my mom to pick up organic baby food for the days when she doesn't eat much, but I don't know how I'd add calcium to that.. Would mixing in calcium powder be bad somehow? I always dust her crickets. I also think I need to try finding better UVB bulbs, because the store sold me spiral bulbs, and I hear those cause eye problems, and she does tent to close one eye and not the other, which seems to be a common symptom to whatever the problem is that they cause.

 

[sweetiepie9]

You're right, phosphorus does bind calcium so it's not absorbed by the body, so Calcium without phosphorus & with VitD3 is the right one to use. If you decide to use baby food, just mix in calcium powder, a pinch or two, then see if she'll eat it. Continue dusting her bugs, too. She doesn't need a huge amount of calcium but at least a feeding a day. The lack of appetite could just be parasites in her belly, so a liquid probiotic like Acidopholus (I only know of one site that sells the liquid www.bug-de-lite.com, but there may be other sites) would help put good bacteria back in her tummy. Otherwise it's just a patience game at this point. You can't abuse a dragon for 3 years and expect instant health. So be paitent. It took over 3 months before Gabriel, the dragon I rescued in April, was feeling better. He started off with bugs, but couldn't digest them very well, so I put him on probiotics and babyfood. He was also on Panacur, an anti-biotic for parasites, as he had a load of them. Took 3 months to get rid of the parasites and just before that is when he started eating real bugs. He went from 280g to 496g from end April last year to beg August before he was healthy again. I was lucky, he didn't have metabolic bone disease (lack of calcium & UVB causing soft bones, which is what your dragon may have) but I gave him a dose of liquid calcium daily. You can get that at the same site www.bug-de-lite.com, as liquid calcium is easier to digest than the powder, so you might want to look into that. The owner of that site is Tracie and she's a moderator on this site, so knows what she's doing. She's more knowledgable that most vets I've heard of (I have a great vet, I"m very lucky) and she's helped me with all my dragons over the 6 years I've known her. So if you have more concerns you can PM her at drache613.
Keep me posted!

 

[Venidara]

Thank you!

I actually am planning on getting a liquid form when I buy it this time, I'm almost out of my powder. I didn't know it was easier to digest, I just thought it would be more convenient. Thank you for the information, though!

I really hope she doesn't have parasites, that sounds awful. :/
I feel bad calling it abuse, because my friend meant well, but she seemed to always go with her first suggestion from the pet store. While I love that pet store, and some people there seem to really know their stuff about beardies, not all do. She was getting her info from the same guy who, when I called and asked what the little brown worm/caterpillar bugs coming with my crickets were, said to me "I'm not sure what they are, they're some kind of beetle. They tend to be in with the crickets, just feed them to your pet, they'll probably be fine." x.x But she did end up giving her poor care, unfortunately, and she could tell, that's why she asked me to take her.

I definitely think that she might have MBD. :/ I've noticed that when I hold Atreyu, if he moves and tries to crawl up my arm or away from me (usually this only happens during his bath once he's fed up with the water or with me wiping poo off of his feet, or if a sound scares him), his legs feel very strong, and he's almost hard to hold back. His legs feel solid and muscular, and he can get a good grip on things. Butters' legs sort of tend to just dangle and sit, not grasp well, and when she tries to run away (also usually during baths), her legs feel really soft and weak, and it's like holding back a baby. Also, she's tiny. Three years old, and she's only 16 inches, including her tail. Atreyu is almost 7 months and he's about as big as she is, and growing.

 

[sweetiepie9]

I agree with you, so the calcium will help that a bit. But what you need to do is make sure she exercies her limbs every day. When I had Angel, who's bones were so very soft, she contantly tried to jump out of the sink I gave her her back in, it's 7" deep and it helped her back legs very much. She hated baths and jumped all the time, it took a few weeks for her legs muscles to strengthen up, but it was worth the daily baths, just to see her strengthen up. So give that a try, as it should help alot.

I didn't mean that your friend was abusing her on purpose. There are so many beardie owners that are not using the right equipment, lights, etc, who'se beardies will never be healthy as a result. Most are given the wrong info at the pet shops where they buy their beardies. And that mostly is in because of what the pet shops want the beardie owners to buy. It's difficult to get the petshops to get the right info & have the right UVB lights and basking temps, proper tanks, etc, available to the owners. It's a sore spot for me, as alot of these owners come on here looking for advice and have to return alot of the lights to get better quality ones. So please don't think I'm blaming your friend, just whoever gave her the advice. I wish there was a way to get all pet stores to have the right info, so beardies wouldn't suffer. At least she was good enough to realize her dragon wasn't well and ask you to help her. And it was great that you took her in. She may always be a small beardies, but she also may grow when she feels better.

Keep in touch & if you have ANY questions, don't hesitate to ask. Do you know a vet where you can take a fecal in to make sure she doesn't have any parasites? If she does, she'll need to be medicated. She probably needs a vet visit, but it's not really necessary and I think you're doing all the right things to get her in better health.