Black/Dark Beardies?

[Psychopopcorn]

I have seen maybe one or two really dark bearded dragons on the internet before and I was wondering if these are really rare/popular? Has anyone seen these before? They are extremely dark and in some spots even black. And I think a little purpleish in the lighter areas. I am really curious about these guys. How much do they go for normally?

 

[spyder79]

Darth Vader (produced by bloodbank) went for around 3 grand. But it takes a lot of time and money to even begin to produce something like that not to mention the extreme line/inbreeding that would have to be involved. Ethically its not something I would ever breed.

 

[Fallencomrade2008]

spyder is right, inbreeding is basically the only way to get such a extream color. It's not something that just happens, and it take alot of breeding work. That makes the price quite high usually.

 

[DragonMomSandy]

There is a species of bearded dragon, the Pagona Barbata or Eastern Bearded Dragon found in AUS. They range in color from the yellows, browns and reds to the dark greys and black. The black coloring is seen frequently with this species, from my understanding and it happens naturally. Finding this species in the US is very difficult and AUS does not allow export of any of it's animals. Any dragons from a black color morph line here are almost certainly from the breeders who are doing a lot of inbreeding to try and pass on the trait that causes that color and establish lines of black dragons. There are only a few breeders out there working on projects like this currently. I am in agreement with Brian and Fallen. I think inbreeding dragons like this is asking for serious problems down the road as not only are they passing on that color trait (genetic defect) they are passing on and creating further genetic defects as well. So, although quite cool looking, a black dragon from a heavily inbred line could have the potential for some serious problems. Just my opinion.

 

[Psychopopcorn]

aww, thank you all for your opinions, I kind of had a feeling inbreeding would be a part of it since there are so few out there. This is good to know. This is too bad though, they really are good looking. To be honest I was even thinking of starting a breeding project to bring out the darks sometime in the next 3-4 years. But if it really is impossible without inbreeding (which I will never do) then I suppose I will have to think of something else. Thanks all for the input

 

[DragonMomSandy]

The problem you would probably run into is that, starting with 2 breeders that are darker in color, they may already have some extensive inbreeding in their backgrounds. Especially if you get either of them from a breeder working on the same type of breeding project. If you found 2 dragons, darker in coloring that are not related and not heavily inbred (here I would be getting as much proof from the breeders as possible to be sure), you would have to choose hatchies from the clutches that were the darkest, then try to find other dark colored dragons that are not related to the parents and so on. That color trait is due to a genetic defect. Take a genetic defect, reproduce it through inbreeding and the defect becomes more pronounced. The problem is that you are also creating other genetic defects that will become evident sooner or later (deformities, organ problems, stunted growth, reproduction problems, blindness, light/heat sensitivities, shortened life spans, etc..... It could take a lot of searching and many generations to pass that trait strongly enough to produce solid black dragons consistantly. If you found a US breeder with a P. Barbata, it could be possible to get a very dark baby, then you'd have to find another non-related, dark colored dragon. Here again, I'd want proof of the bloodline as P. Barbata is almost non-existant in US collections. I'd say you are of the right mind, and choosing to not breed related dragons is definately the more ethical way to go. The pics I've seen of solid black dragons are really cool, but, I prefer not to inbreed my animals or to purchase from a breeder with heavily inbred lines.

Glad the info was helpful.

 

[spyder79]

Sandy

Thanks for your well thought out post but i have to point out one thing. Color traits are not genetic malformations. You are confusing a "line trait" (as color is a line trait passed from parent to offspring) with genetic disorders such as leathers and translucent lines. Color is not a genetic defect, in fact you should see some of the colors that occur naturally in australia within bearded dragons. Colors that we strive to produce here, such as the deepest red imaginable and almost patternless whites, occur naturally in australia. These are not genetic defects they are colorations controlled by the locality that the dragon is found in. It would be possible to find numerous unrelated(using the term unrelated loosely ie 5 generations or more of seperation as almost all us stock is related in a round about way) dark normals and breed them selectively to each others lines to produce dark stock. Problem would be, to do it properly (ie without direct line inbreeding) it would take roughly 7-9 years to get to a point where you were producing them regularly. That time frame is why many of the "super breeders" practice line breeding because it is a shortcut to producing a morph that they want.

Just like the translucent gene which originated from 1 pair of dragons in the uk that was then outcrossed and the outcrossed hets were bred back to their grandparents, those offspring were outcrossed again and then bred back to the original hets and so on and so on and over about 8-10 years you end up where we are at now with them (though they still have significant clutch deaths, low clutch counts, and shortened lifespans due to the severe inbreeding that took place) but you get the point.

 

[fresnowitte]

Actually those were very good points that you pointed out Brian and Sandy.

Australia does have a large variation of colors in different areas the beardies have adapted to their environment. You see brick red beardies where the soil is like a red clay....some flat areas that contain lots of dead foliage/grass land will have very yellow beardies. Mountainous areas with dark soil will have dark beardies. I believe that they evolved to fit into their environment over time as a survival thing...less likely to be seen by predators.

I'm beginning to understand(not willing to take them) all those short cut that are taken to reproduce a particular trait...but with short cuts like mentioned there is a price to pay...I for one am not happy with entertaining the thought of having to put down several babies from a clutch because health issues. Nor would I want to have or sell...for a costly price mind you...a beardie that may possibly only live a couple of years due to my creating something not hardy.

The stronger the better so why weaken it?
Why is it that man kind can never leave well enough alone? :roll:

 

[spyder79]

Why is it that man kind can never leave well enough alone?

Cause man fancies himself as a god to lesser creatures. Its why i prefer animals to people and why most of my friends live in my computer lmao.

 

[Mistyck]

Why is it that man kind can never leave well enough alone?

Cause man fancies himself as a god to lesser creatures. Its why i prefer animals to people and why most of my friends live in my computer lmao.

LOL No kidding, that way you can just shut them off if need be. :lol:

 

[ChellyBeans]

Why is it that man kind can never leave well enough alone?

Cause man fancies himself as a god to lesser creatures. Its why i prefer animals to people and why most of my friends live in my computer lmao.

:!: NERD ALERT! :!:

Now back to the point at hand...

 

[spyder79]

:study: :headbang: :study:

 

[fresnowitte]

Yep! I couldn't agree more! :lol: If I don't want to talk to my friends I just click on the little x. :lol: My scaley ones I'm always okay talking to but then they don't tick me off. Hell I moved out to the country just so my local friends would leave me alone. :silent:

Hey you guys set me up to hijack or what? :lol:

Sorry OP back to the topic..........

 

[DragonMomSandy]

Thanks for the correction Brian. I did also point out that black coloring, as well as other colors, do in fact occur naturally in the wild.

There is a species of bearded dragon, the Pagona Barbata or Eastern Bearded Dragon found in AUS. They range in color from the yellows, browns and reds to the dark greys and black. The black coloring is seen frequently with this species, from my understanding and it happens naturally

Barb is correct, the different locals that wild dragons live in are responsible for their color traits that they have developed in their genetic lines. I have some info from a friend, who Brian also knows, about the "phases" and "locals" of wild dragons in AUS that makes this very point. And, I also agree it is a defensive/camaflouge thing that has developed over many, many generations.

Brian, My reference to "defects" I suppose was not the best wording, genetic trait is probably more appropriate. As you pointed out, if a breeder chooses to take short cuts to achieve a specific line color, they are breeding to enhance that color trait through inline breeding. The leathers and trans, as you point out, are definately an enhancement of genetic defects, a trait that the breeders have monopolized on to produce continuously. But, in striving to achieve a color, like black, at what point do you suppose it becomes a defect? Regardless, inbreeding/inline breeding opens up a whole spectrum of possible problems, defects, that I will most definately steer clear of as all reputable breeders, like Brian and Barb, choose to. If/when I choose to take the step into hobby breeding, it will be done with non-related (as Brian again points out-at least 5 or more generations of seperation). I want to produce not only beautiful, but healthy, hardy babies.

Thanks Barb and Brian, I'm always learning and the tidbits help sort out some of the genetic stuff I've been researching on my own.

And Brian, I agree with you. Man too often feels he can make things "better" by messing with it!

Barb, the hi-jacking....nicely done!.... LMAO!

 

[Psychopopcorn]

Thanks all for your posts. I am understanding more I think. So maybe the blacks and super darks would be nearly impossible to achieve without inbreeding, so I wouldn't go this route. I am still thinking of doing some breeding in a few years and I am going to stick with producing healthy little ones. And then, if I decide to take it up full-time, I might re-visit this idea and research the best ways to achieve a look without inbreeding. (even though it may take 9 or more years). But for now, I just love the little boogers and it would be awesome to bring some perky oranges to families one day.