Belly & Back Twitching, vet is at a loss

[CricketChirp]

Hello all,
First off, thank you for taking the time to read and hopefully reply to my problem, I appreciate any advice/thoughts any of you may have on this issue.

I am the proud and happy owner of a 3 year old male Bearded Dragon, purchased from the breeder Dachiu. Over the past 5 weeks, he has started to show signs of small twitches or spasms on his mid to lower back, his belly and at the very base of his tail. At first, these symptoms were very small and infrequent and I thought that it was simply muscle fatigue. He is extremely active and will run around his enclosure, exploring everything. After the second week the twitching became more noticeable and I started to worry that he may have MBD and upped his calcium. This did not appear to help. I then changed his UVB bulb (it is a 10.0). This also did not help.

I researched any vitamin deficiency that could possibly cause these symptoms and discovered that Vitamin B1 could also cause muscle twitching. I purchased this vitamin and began dusting his food with this as well as his normal multivitamin and the increased calcium. This also had no effect. At this point, (at about the 3rd week) the twitching was very apparent and occurred after any large movement (for example, he would run from one end of the cage to the other and when he paused, the muscles would start twitching).

I then took him to the vet, realizing that I had reached the end of what I could do to help him. The vet was completely stumped. She told me that he appeared perfectly healthy, that he showed no symptoms of MBD (his jaws are like a rock). She prescribed a high dose liquid calcium (just in case) and also gave me Bene-Bac, a gel containing beneficial micro-organisms (similar to the bacteria found in yogurt to help digestion). I have been faithfully administering these products as per instructions over the past week but there has been no change.

Other than this bizarre twitching he appears perfectly healthy. He has not lost any weight, he continues to behave normally and he does not appear to notice the twitching. He has been fighting me a bit with the medication and still eats pretty well, although he is starting to go off his food now. He does not appear to be impacted and continues to poop everyday/every other day. This is the first time he has been ill since I first purchased him.

I feed him as great a variety of foods as I can. This includes -but is not limited too- butternut/acorn/yellow squash, kale, carrots, green beans, papaya, mango, apples, blueberries, silkworms, waxworms, butterworms, hornworms, gut-loaded crickets, spinach, kiwi, cantaloupe, mustard greens, dandelion greens, pellets. Typically, he has two small meals a day. One is greens/pellets, the other is fruit or bugs. I will alternate so that he only eats bugs two/three times a week. The same with fruit. The second meal is always dusted with calcium/multivitamin.
His basking zones are 107 to 72, no humidity, plenty of space to move around. UVB bulb is new and the most powerful one I can buy. He has a towel for substrate that is cleaned every 3 days (hand washed with baby soap). Fearing a possible toxin issue I replaced the towel with a new one 3 weeks ago. This also had no effect)

The vet has not given up and is continuing to do research. I am hoping that someone out there has experienced this problem, or something similar and may be able to offer some insight. ANY thoughts you have are appreciated, even ones that are a little far fetched. I love this dragon very much and I am very worried about him.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

That is an odd scenario. It is great you have researched so much & have done a lot to combat the problem.
The thiamin deficiency can mimic metabolic bone disease. How much thiamin did you give & for how long?
How close is your UVB light & it is a Reptisun 10 tube bulb, correct? Is there any plastic or screen in between
the light & your dragon?

There was a woman on the board awhile back who had a dragon which had a mineral deficiency. They
eventually got it balanced out. Did the vet do a blood test on him yet? I would start there, to see if there is
anything out of balance that just can't be "seen" externally.

Tracie

 

[CricketChirp]

Thank you for your quick reply!

You are correct, the UVB bulb is a ReptiSun tube bulb 10.0. It is set up under the cage mesh lid so there is nothing between him and the bulb itself. The original case did include a glass cover but I removed that after I bought it and instead I sparingly wrapped the two ends with wire (as a back-up in case the bulb should fall into the tank, the wire would catch it first and, I wrapped the whole mechanism, not the bulb itself). The bulb is about 10in to 18in away from him depending on his location in the cage.

The Thiamin I am continuing to administer so this is going on about 2-3weeks. Apparently, B vitamins are difficult to overdose on so I have been generous (or, at least, I felt I was being generous), I'm giving him a quarter tablet every day, about 25mg. The vet felt this was ok, maybe it is still not enough? He is a large and heavy lizard at 1.1 lbs.
I thought maybe the vitamin wasn't working because of the frozen veggies I add to the greens meal so I stopped using them 2 weeks ago and switched to fresh versions. It doesn't seem to have helped either.

Your theory with the mineral deficiency is interesting, do you know how she solved the problem? Did she do a diet change or changed the supplements? I'll discuss this with the vet and see what she thinks.
No, she didn't do a blood test but it makes sense, I will ask her to do it. Would a mineral deficiency show up in a blood test? I am assuming any major vitamin deficiency should show up so that is a good place to start as any.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Yes, a mineral deficiency or imbalance would show up on a blood test if they were looking for it, but it is something that can be easily overlooked also.
It sounds like the amount of B vitamins you are giving are fine. Remember they do take awhile to come out of deficiencies if that is what it is. The frozen veggies may have contributed some but you have corrected that now.
That is good the UVB does not go through screen then, the UVB exposure should be great right now.
I think a vitamin A & E shot were initially given, along with just a good vitamin supplement. Any vitamin supplement though should not have synthetic vitamin A or E in it as they are easily overdosed.

Let me know when you get the blood test done.

Tracie

 

[CricketChirp]

The vet was closed over the weekend (except for emergencies) and unfortunately I have now discovered today that the particular vet I was working with is on vacation for the week, I am most unlucky. It is doubly unfortunate that she is the only seasoned reptile vet within an hours drive and I'm not sure I would want to bring my lizard (who clearly has such a strange and rare issue) to another less experienced vet who might mess up the results. My current job prevents me from driving much further than that, although I would be willing, however I do need to keep the job to pay for the vet so I suppose I might have to rough it out. It is not a pleasant thought.

So far, I have seen little/no improvement but it also has not gotten any worse. It is possible that something might be helping (since you mentioned that it can take a while to see results). He still seems somewhat off his food but is continuing to run around and is alert.

Since this issue is most likely mineral/vitamin related, I would like to ask you if this problem could be related to the brand of supplements I am using. Currently I am using Rep-Cal calcium with vitamin D3 and Rep-Cal Herptivite, the company suggests mixing them together 50/50 to obtain the correct ratios of vitamins which is what I have done. I bought the supplements in the past 6 months so they shouldn't have lost potency. May I ask what supplement brand you are using? I ended up going with this brand because it seemed like it had the most to offer vitamin/mineral wise in comparison to the others on the shelf, however it crosses my mind that there may be other brands I don't know about that might be better.

 

[CricketChirp]

Also, I apologize, I realize I have been rude. My name is Kim and my bearded dragon's name is Kaiba.

 

[AllanonsWrath]

We forgive you Formalities can come after Health risks!

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

No, those are the better brands actually. Most people here in the US use those brands, the Herptivite and the Repcal.
Have you been mixing the two for awhile? I normally don't mix the vitamins & minerals with the calcium. I feel that you can get too much of the vitamins/minerals & not enough of the calcium sometimes. So I prefer to give them separately.

That is rough trying to get to the vets right now!
How is he doing today?

Tracie

 

[CricketChirp]

He actually seems to be twitching a little less and I'm hopeful that one or maybe all of the increased supplements might be helping. Perhaps you were right and it is a mineral deficiency. I have been trying to focus on foods high in a variety of minerals so this might also be contributing.
On the down side he seems to be choosing to sleep a lot more now and I'm not sure if this is related to the twitching issue or if he is starting to brumate. Last year he started brumating about early january so I think this could be that.
The vet should be back monday so I will update you then. I am very happy that he seems to be showing some improvement and with any luck will continue to improve!

 

[Mirthy]

Hi Kim,
I hope Kaiba is feeling better. This probably has nothing to do with your problem but I thought I'd throw it out. Do you premix the calcium and vitamins in advance? The reason I ask is that the beta carotene is in sort of mini caplets that will be punctured by the calcium grains and become ineffective.

Please keep us posted on how Kaiba is doing. We are all wishing both of you the best!

Carrie

 

[mutu]

Hi there,
I have a 4 year old Bearded Dragon named Mutu, and he is experiencing the EXACT same problems. I have done honestly the exact same thing you have by changing his diet, adding a new bulb, we even use the same 2 powders. I actually thought when reading your posts that it was me typing in my sleep because everything that you have said I am having the same problems with. I have even talked to a reptile specialist vet and she is also stumped. She said I am doing everything right and she could not suggest anything different other than a calcium shot. But I don't think it is a calcium problem.
One thing I have been doing is mixing either his herptivite or calcium with D3 in water, and using a saringe to squirt the mixture in his mouth. He is not eating as much as he used to and his greens intake has gone down, so to still deliver his nutrients I thought this would be a good way. I also started to feed his phoenix worms, but he hasn't eaten any in a few days. The other day he ate 2 dusted super worms and 6 phoenix worms, but has only had 1.5 dusted worms in the last 2 days (only ate half the worm) Usually Mutu has a huge appetite and would pig out... He is still very alert and like to move around in his cage, he appears healthy, but obviously something is happening

I am very interested in this conversation as it relates a lot to me and Mutu, and I hope that we can figure out what is going on with our babies.
Let me know if you try anything and it seems to be working and I will do the same

Chad

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Any updates for us on your boy for us? I hope he is doing better.

**Chad, you can start your own thread so we can review your tank setup, if you would like.

Tracie

 

[AprilMayJune]

One thing I noticed that others may have not is the feeding of spinach. Spinach binds the calcium so I would discontinue feeding him spinach from now on.

It's probably not the problem but lets eliminate it completely to his diet from now on.

 

[mutu]

Hello,

So I have been doing some reading to try and figure out something that will help both our beardies, and I found that Brewers Yeast can be dusted on our beardies food. Apparently it is a good source of calcium and B-Vitamins, and can be bought at GNC. The people that said they used it saw improvements in the twitching and it has gone away. I think I might try this out. Does anyone know if this would be good or bad for our beardies?

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

The brewer's yeast is very good. It has a B complex array in it. It is a little high in phosphorus so I would go easy on the use of it, for long periods of time. It could be a thiamin deficiency which can be corrected through B vitamin supplementation.
Any updates for us Cricketchirp??


Tracie