Beardie Hiding and not Basking

[Quelaag]

So I brought this up in the other thread I made, but since it's sort of a separate issue that's been occurring for the past 2 weeks, I figured I'd post in a new thread to see if you guys can help me figure out if it's a Husbandry issue. Since April 1st, my Beardie has been hiding under his basking rock for most of the day. This all started one night after I put him to bed later than usual, but that could be entirely a coincidence. Sometimes I have to take him out and put him on his rock just to get him to bask. He'll do it on his own too, but not for nearly as long as he used to and I fear he's not getting enough UVB due to this. This morning when he pooped I noticed it wasn't fully digested and wasn't as well formed like it usually is-- probably from lack of basking properly.

I also don't know why he's hiding so often. He's fine when I let him out, he'll run around and explore like usual. He's still eating his crickets and greens like he's supposed to. I also upgraded his tank from a 20 Gallon to a 40 one last week, but he was doing that even before the upgrade. Aside from the hiding thing, he's fine. I mean I guess it could be the fact that he's been shedding a lot lately? He shed his back last week and right now his snout is shedding. I don't think his entire head is going to shed now though. But he never did this for any previous sheds before so I'm not 100% sure.

I'm wondering if it could possibly be a Husbandry issue that maybe I haven't caught up on? I'm still new to the whole Bearded Dragon thing so it is entirely possible.

So I went ahead and answered these questions, hopefully that will be enough to go off of?

How old is your dragon? Around 4 or 5 months old judging by size. I'm not exactly sure as he is a Pet Store baby.

How long have you had your dragon? Almost 3 months.

How long is your dragon? 12 inches give or take. He's growing like a weed so it's hard to keep up sometimes.

What is the sex of your dragon? Still not 100% sure yet, but I'm about 65% sure he's a male.

What size enclosure do you have your dragon in? 40 Gallon as of a week ago.

What type substrate do you have on the bottom of your tank? Carpet, but I'd like to switch to tile.

Do you use UVB lights? Yes.

If so, Is it a coil, compact, fluorescent tube, or Mercury Vapor bulb? Mercury Vapor

What is the brand name and number of your bulb? Wattage (if MVB)? PowerSun 100 Watt Mercury Bulb. I sadly don't know the number. D:

How old is your UVB bulb? 2 months old.

How close can your dragon get to the UVB? He can get within about 14 inches of it. I still have to measure exactly in his new enclosure, I'm also working on getting him more stuff to climb on in case he needs to get closer.

Do you use a separate basking bulb? What kind and what is the wattage? Is it a white or colored bulb? I just started using a second basking bulb to maintain heat in the new enclosure. Not 100% sure on the exact wattage, but I know it's under 60 Watts. It's also sadly not white like the Mercury Bulb, it's got the slightly yellow tint that house lights usually have. I'm hoping to change that soon though. Hopefully it won't cause any issues?

What are the basking temps? The surface temperature on his warm side ranges between 100 to 109 on his rock, but the air temperature on the same side reads about 88 to 93 degrees which varies often.

What is the cool side temp? Right now it's at 83.

Do you take the temps with a stick on thermometer, a digital thermometer with a wire and a probe end or a temp gun? Digital Thermometer with a probe at the end and a temp gun.

Where exactly are you taking your basking temps? On his basking rock with the temp gun-- I also check the floor occasionally as that seems to conduct heat a lot under the second basking bulb. For the wire digital probe I have it set along the side of the wall on his warm side.

Do you use a heat rock or heat pad? No.

What do you feed your dragon? Please be specific. I feed Haru crickets 2 times a day with a side of greens. I also very rarely give him meal worms, but he hasn't had those in about 3 or 4 weeks. He gets Dandelion, Mustard, Collard, and Turnip Greens sprinkled with Calcium 4 to 5 times a week and vitamins 2 to 3 times a week. He also gets Green Beans and occasionally mushed up Sweet Potatoes. I plan on introducing him to more stuff in the future like Dubia Roaches and Squash.

How often do you feed and what time do you feed (morning, afternoon, night)? I feed him at about 10:00 AM and 6 PM with crickets. Greens he usually gets at noon.

Do you gutload (feed) your crickets, worms, etc? Yes.

Do you use vitamin or calcium supplements? What brand(s)? How many days a week do you use each of them?

Is your dragon having regular bowel movements (poops)? Yes, he usually poops about once a day.

Do you bath your dragon? How often? Yes, I bathe him about 3 times a week.

Do you mist your dragon or offer water other than in the bath? Yes about 2 to 3 times a day.

Have you gotten a vet check and fecal done? I had one done in March which came back clean, but I'm probably going to get another one done just to be safe.

Does your dragon share an enclosure with another dragon? No.

 

[kbro]

I did reply to you, it really does sound like you've got everything right. Maybe post a picture of the set up so we can see it, sometimes that helps as well. Maybe someone can point out something that I'm missing. I know you have done a lot of research, it's so frustrating when something isn't right but you can't figure it out.
You can try blocking his entrance to the hide until bedtime, some people don't even use hides with younger dragons.
Also, are you just putting calcium on the salad? Usually you "shake n bake" style on the crickets once per day not the salad, dut that shouldn't affect him basking.

 

[Quelaag]

I did reply to you, it really does sound like you've got everything right. Maybe post a picture of the set up so we can see it, sometimes that helps as well. Maybe someone can point out something that I'm missing. I know you have done a lot of research, it's so frustrating when something isn't right but you can't figure it out.
You can try blocking his entrance to the hide until bedtime, some people don't even use hides with younger dragons.
Also, are you just putting calcium on the salad? Usually you "shake n bake" style on the crickets once per day not the salad, dut that shouldn't affect him basking.

I can't believe I forgot about that. I'll take a picture of the enclosure tomorrow when his lights are back on. I will warn people though he doesn't have too much to climb on at the moment since I upgraded him to a 40 Gallon enclosure, but I'm working on getting him more stuff to climb on.

I've considered taking his rock away for a while, which I probably should since his digestion is at stake, but then I'd feel bad because he doesn't currently have much else to bask on at the moment. I tried blocking his entrance with the stick I have in his enclosure, but he's determined. He somehow squeezed past it so now I don't want to do that in fear of him hurting himself.

And I occasionally dust the crickets, but usually I just put it in his salad. I didn't know dusting the crickets was better for him, but I can definitely switch over to dusting the crickets.

 

[Quelaag]

So here are the pictures of my set up. I need to get a second Digital Probe for the cool side as the other one I had wasn't all that great. I also need a more accurate humidity reader which I'll hopefully have by this weekend. I have a dial, but it keeps falling and was-- I'm pretty sure-- inaccurate anyway so it's not currently in the enclosure.

Also sorry my enclosure looks so bare right now, he currently only has the stuff from his 20 Gallon. I'm doing away with the stick once I find a broader one to lean against something and my fiance is currently working on a rock bridge for him and another hide/basking spot so we're also going to do away with the tiny bridge since he outgrew it, sadly.

And then him, wondering why I'm taking pictures of his home. You can see his poor little face is currently shedding.

Hope this helps anyone figure out what I may be doing wrong. I can take more pictures too if need be. Sorry if any of them are blurry, it's often hard to tell on my phone.

Also, kind of related: Can someone recommend me some better substrate? I accidentally got the felt carpet stuff and his nails keep getting caught. The carpet I had before wasn't too bad, but this one is a nightmare. I've only had it a week and it's already super hard to clean. I'm interested in getting tile for him, but I sadly don't know much about using tiles at all so any information would be greatly appreciated.

 

[CooperDragon]

You'll want to have a tube UVB light (ReptiSun 10.0) alongside the basking light. You'll also want to put the probe right on the basking surface for 30min or so to get an accurate basking area reading. As for tiles, they work very well. I used ceramic floor tiles from Lowes that I had cut down to the appropriate size so that two tiles could cover the whole tank. You'll want something that isn't glazed and has a little bit of a rough/unfinished surface to it. Lowes has ceramic "slate" tiles that do the job nicely.

 

[Quelaag]

You'll want to have a tube UVB light (ReptiSun 10.0) alongside the basking light. You'll also want to put the probe right on the basking surface for 30min or so to get an accurate basking area reading. As for tiles, they work very well. I used ceramic floor tiles from Lowes that I had cut down to the appropriate size so that two tiles could cover the whole tank. You'll want something that isn't glazed and has a little bit of a rough/unfinished surface to it. Lowes has ceramic "slate" tiles that do the job nicely.

I'm going to get a Reptisun eventually, but right now I'm waiting for a few months for my Powersun to run out which is also a UVB lamp. I don't think it would be the cause of his issues as he had it about two months before the hiding issue started, but who knows? :C And yeah I definitely need a better probe but for now I take surface temps with a temp gun and I monitor surface temperatures regularly. I'm also kind of wary about putting probes on the rock-- are there wireless ones and where can I get one? And I'll look into the tiles next time I'm at Lowes, all I know is this carpet stuff I have is just awful. I might even temporarily use newspaper until I get tile or something. Thank you!

Also took in a fecal sample today just to be safe and it came back negative for parasites. I'm relieved, but also frustrated because I still don't know what's wrong. :C

 

[CooperDragon]

I'm glad the fecal sample came back negative, that's a relief (although I understand the frustration of not knowing what's up as well). If you have a temp gun already that's great. You can just keep using that because that can give you accurate temps all over the tank. You could put down some paper towels instead of the carpet and that would be totally fine until you can get some tiles.

 

[kbro]

I am starting to wonder about the powersun. I have only used one once and didn't have a good experience. I personally don't think they have been tested enough no matter how many people say they are good. The owner of a local reptile store and breeder of tons of bearded dragons by me does not even sell them. He found thru his own testing the uvb was not correct after a couple months (i wish I would have had this info before). The only bulb he sells and recommends is the reptisun 10.0. I know how expensive the mvb are, maybe try calling zoo med and seeing if you could somehow exchange the powersun with a couple of reptisuns. Explain you are having problems with it and would rather just get the trusted reptisun instead or at least a new powersun. It's worth a try since the powersuns have a 1 year warranty. Does it make any noises? Is it possible it got knocked around at all? Those bulbs are pretty sensitive.
In your private message you said you had a stand before but it broke, did he start hiding after the powersun got put on top of the screen? I wouldn't think that wouldn't make him hide though nor anything else. You seem to have done your research well that's kinda why I'm thinking something could be wrong with the bulb.
You mentioned maybe getting a new stand, honestly instead of getting a stand I would order a reptisun 10.0 online (usually around $30 online vs. 50 at some stores, not mine luckily). You can get a fixture from walmart pretty cheap I've heard but can't see it online, but any electronic ballast fluorescent light fixture should work as long as it's the same size bulb (t8 or t5) and length.
I think I saw in the first topic that you didn't have a timer, if it's not you sorry lol I've read a lot recently. I don't think it would make him hide, but it's good to keep them on a routine. Any timer should work for it, just make sure it's not for only really low wattage. I have a power strip hooked up to mine (from target) though and have 2 reptisuns (one a 48 inch) and 3 heat lights and it works fine. You could just get a reptile one to make it simple but they can be kinda pricey too.
I'm very happy to hear that he is clear of parasites. this also makes me think the bulb unfortunately. It is still possible that he is having a really bothersome shed, pebbles went into her cave for a little bit, but really only like 5 to 10 minutes at a time then she would hop back on the rock for a while. But that was also only for a couple days when she first started shedding. Yours has been doing this for a couple weeks now right? But he still eats and poops. You could try to not turn on the powersun as an experiment, just set up a heat light (you might need a higher wattage bulb though) with correct temps and see if he stays out then. Are you around most of the day to peek in on him?
Sorry, most of this is just me typing my thoughts to try and figure out what's bothering him. Did you happen to move him to a different room? Or do you have any other pets he could be nervous of? Did I already ask what kind of calcium your using?

 

[kbro]

I think that probe is fine, on my cool side for bam bam I have this http://www.acurite.com/environment/digital-humidity-temperature-monitor-00325-00326-00327.html. It's nice because it displays each days high and low temp and humidity so you can watch for anything too high or low of both. It has no probe or wire so it's just the spot where it's sitting, I have to take the probe out of pebbles when I'm not around, I don't quite trust her yet with it. My first dragon wanted to eat it when he was little, but eventually got used to it and realized it's not a bug. Since you measure with the temp gun your fine, I like having the probe kinda like you have it when it's not on the rock in her cage, it's nice to have something to look at quickly to make sure there's no huge increase or decrease in temps, if that changed most likely the basking spot changed as well.
I'm a tile fan as well, easy to clean, no need to replace (usually), looks nice, and helps to file their nails down. You could check craigslist as well, someone might be just giving some away free or really cheap but stick with tile like Cooper mentioned. I had some glazed porcelain ones I got for free and they are way slippery and didn't do anything for the nails. Otherwise duck brand non adhesive shelf liner is nice too (some other brands have a smell) for all the same reasons except it won't help with the nails. I use both, I line the bottom with the shelf liner, then have tiles in certain areas, but my tank is huge to be just tiles.

 

[jarich]

I would suggest taking the Powersun away or turning it off and seeing what happens. Most brands of MVB are wildly variable in output. It sounds like possibly your dragon may be hiding from overexposure, but its hard to say for sure. It will be fine for a few days while you shut it off to determine if that is the problem or not. I know with my MegaRay MVB, I had to move it back to around 18" before my dragon would make use of the light.

 

[diamc]

Are you holding the temp gun 2" from the area you're checking? What is the actual basking temp?

I have to agree that it looks like he is hiding from something, possibly the MVB.

 

[Quelaag]

Is it possible for the MVB to bother him even after he was using it for about 2 months? So I guess the best way to test it would just be to use his basking for the next few days to see? Like I said he's fine outside of his enclosure and he'll crawl out of his hide for a bit to eat and everything so there's definitely something bothering him within the enclosure. Also yes, I'm holding the temp gun within 2" of the basking rock which varies between 102 to 109.

As for the ZooMed warranty thing, would they be able to somehow exchange lights? Is their customer service decent? I'd like to eventually get a Reptisun 10.0 like I mentioned, but I can't really fork out too much for one right this instant unless I can somehow get an exchange. I really hope they can exchange it or something.

Sorry if I failed to reply to anything else anyone may have mentioned, but I think I've covered replying to the important points everyone has made-- hopefully. I'm currently replying in a slight hurry since I need to be in bed soon.

 

[kbro]

Yes it's possible that after a few months something could have changed with the uvb output of the bulb. We know it's not the temps now since you have tried changing those around. You could try raising the powersun even more like one of the other posters said, but then you would have to buy a new stand and those run pretty close in price to reptisuns so you wouldn't really want to buy the stand and end up getting the tube anyways.
I'm not sure how good zoo med is with their warranty, I know they are supposed to have a year so it's worth a try, it can't hurt to ask for reptisuns as replacement for your powersun. The most they can do is say no, but they should replace the powersun if anything.
Also with the temp gun you have I don't think you have to be within 2 inches, you could be up to 12 inches away and read a 1 inch circle.

 

[Quelaag]

I think you guys were right. I'm using two basking lights right now and he has only been under his rock once and that was only when the temps were heating up so he was still waking up. Like you said, Kbro, the Reptisun's are much cheaper online so I think I'm going to go through that. Or I think it was you who had suggested Amazon? But seriously, they are drastically more affordable online. I only have a few questions about the Reptisun before I purchase one: How do you mount them and are they sturdy? How long do they usually last? And what size do you guys think I should get and would a size that is suitable for a 40G tank also be able to be used for say a 75G or 100G? I'm not getting that big of an enclosure YET, but it's something I want to upgrade to eventually. Sorry for all the questions!

I'm also probably not going to bother with the Warranty as I think I was supposed to send in some sort of postcard (whoops) I do think I have a warranty with the store I purchased it from though, so I may ask them about that.

I'm going to hold off for another day or so to be certain that it's the UVB causing it, but considering he's already not hiding anymore, I'm pretty sure it was the MVB. Thank you guys, I would have never considered the MVB as being the issue.

 

[kbro]

I hope we did figure it out, it is frustrating when you can't. It's recommended to change the reptisun every 6 months to be safe that uvb hasn't decreased, the only way to be sure would be the expensive uvb meter. It's best to get one that spans at least half of the tank, but better to have it 2/3rds of it so it may be necessary to buy something else later on, or get a larger one to set on top but make sure he has something to get up there close to it (6-8 inches for the reptisun). Some people use the 3m stick on hook things to hang them in there, I think it depends on the fixture you get how to hang it good. I personally have a small chain wrapped around the fixture and this metal 1 inch wide strip with holes in it that i bent to hang over the side. It's easier to move the light up and down if needed, I'll try getting a picture of it for you, although it's not the nicest looking.
Pet mountain I think has good prices as well for them, do a Google search so you can compare the best prices with shipping. I ordered bulbs on amazon and they came broken once, they were very easy to exchange and they sent me new ones very fast with no hassles no questions asked but what was wrong so I would order from there again.
You will have to decide if you want a light fixture that's bigger than the tank you have so you won't have to rebuy one or get a new one when the time comes. A 18 inch bulb in a 20 inch fixture is probably good enough for the 40 gal., but you might want the next size up.