Bearded Dragon Pellets?

[TheReptile838]

Hi, (Background info in first paragraph, may want to read the second paragraph, but main question in third paragraph)

I'm new to Bearded Dragons and reptiles, but I've been interested in lizards ever since I was a little kid. I would literally sit and watch them all day if I could. It is only since August last year that I fell in love with Beardies. I've been researching them since, finding every detail about them. I don't really want too think on reconsidering another reptile. I have had a little bit of experience. In the area in England that I live, there aren't any proper reptile shops except from one which is much cheaper than garden centres and pet shops and they care about the place the reptile goes to other than the money. I stayed in that amazing shop for about an hour. It is called Fierce Creatures Reptilia. I got to hold a Beardie, have a Gecko climb up my arm and shoulder and I stroked a Royal Python there. That shop is amazing. They have king cobras, rattle snakes, monitors, geckos, beardies, uromastyx, every reptile you could think of. It's a family run business and the owner is really helpful and shows you and tells you about every reptile there. There are kids there that welcome you and show you around.
I went there with my Dad and Step Mum by the way.

Well... my dad and step mum said that they would let me have a Beardie, but I am only there at the weekend for one day so I wouldn't be there to look after it, so I agree with them that way because I want to be able to look after it. My mum was stuck on an absolute no no. I showed her presentations, videos, I even wrote her a letter to all see when I went to my dads. I did this all about over a month ago? Now my mum is the type that doesn't let me finish what I have to say about Beardies (hence why I put it all in a letter) and she likes to shout and have her own way. But I think that the main problem is, is that there will be live insects in the house, so she will never say yes to having a Beardie since they need bugs. I think even if they are dead bugs, but I'm not sure. I am writing her another letter about pellet foods for Bearded Dragons.

So, my question is, can I use the dry food pellet foods? When I give my mum the letter it will say that I can use the pellet food, but I want to be 100% sure.

So my theory on why the pellets are good is because they have the right amount of protein and the nutrition that beardies will have from insects. The insects are only for the protein, right? So the pellets have the right amount of protein for a Bearded Dragon. Also, why would they lie on the packet saying that they can replace veggies and insects? Although I would still give veggies, surely they wouldn't lie? What would be the point in selling something that was bad to dragons. Plus, why would some vets recommend them? Another reason is that other animals such as dogs, cats and rabbits live on them. I feed my 2 dogs at my dads the processed biscuit stuff in the morning and that dog meat stuff in the evening. I have 2 rabbits at my mums and we give them greens and pellets. You don't buy mice for pet cats to eat. You don't buy rabbits for pet dogs to eat. Pellets don't grow on plants for rabbits to eat. All their diet is put into the dry food stuff. So why should it be different for reptiles? I'll basically feed the pellets if nobody really gives me a proper answer.
I would leave them pellets and veggies for the day to snack on and take them away at night.
So basically, I don't want an answer like "Bugs are always best for them. Try and get your mum used to them" etc. Well first, saying that bugs are best isn't really an answer. I want an answer saying why it has got to be bugs and not pellets. Also, my mum will never do that. I honestly know her very well and I know that she won't do that.
So please give me an answer why not to. I have seen that people just feed pellets and that their beardies all survived. If you feed pellets to your Beardie, please let me know. I know that some ignore pellets, but I have a way to teach them to get used to them, but I won't go into that.

I really want a Bearded Dragon, honestly. But if I find answers telling me truth about them then I will reconsider this as I don't want to make a Beardie ill.

Thanks for any help, I'm really desperate here. I can't find anything telling me what I'm after
~Abi

 

[amsmith5297]

I'd like to know your "way to make them get used to them" :?: I've had my beardie for 6 months now and when I first got him I bought a thing of the pellet food figuring it says it's an all inclusive diet and he would at least get the nutrients from the pellet that he wasn't getting if he didn't eat his veggies or insects. Well, I followed the directions on the container and mixed the pellets with water and made a mash, I tried feeding it to him out of a bowl, off of his nose, off of a spoon, by hand, even mixed it in with his veggies and dipped his insects in it... Yeah, 6 months later and he still won't touch the pellets whether plain by themselves or mixed with veggies or on live prey. I can't speak for anyone else on here, but I have had absolutely no luck with pelleted food.

 

[destiny1998]

Hi. I personally would wait until you can take full responsibility for a beardie. One day a week to spend time with him really isn't worth it.

 

[Yaaeee]

Both of the previous points are good things to consider. I've seen a lot of beardies that will not take to pellets & even some that have taken to them don't take to them in a fashion that they can be a main staple. Babies especially!

Besides that time is also a factor. One day a week is by far not enough time to spend with your dragon. Who will take him? Give him baths to keep him hydrated? Ensure his food is fresh? Clean out the unrated & fecal matter? Check his temperatures daily? These are all things that need to be considered even before you choose food. You may want to wait until you can dedicate the right amount of time to take own a bearded dragon.

 

[TheReptile838]

Both of the previous points are good things to consider. I've seen a lot of beardies that will not take to pellets & even some that have taken to them don't take to them in a fashion that they can be a main staple. Babies especially!

Besides that time is also a factor. One day a week is by far not enough time to spend with your dragon. Who will take him? Give him baths to keep him hydrated? Ensure his food is fresh? Clean out the unrated & fecal matter? Check his temperatures daily? These are all things that need to be considered even before you choose food. You may want to wait until you can dedicate the right amount of time to take own a bearded dragon.

Thanks for the answer
As Destiny1998 also mentioned about the one day a week thing which I saw this morning but didn't have time to reply as I was going to school, I'll talk about that now.
I don't think I explained that clearly enough. I only see my Dad and Step Mum one day a week and they said they would let me have a Beardie, except I'm only there once a week which I agreed with as I would want to be with my Beardie all through the week.
I am only not with my Mum on Saturdays so I would get my Beardie at my Mums house. She is the one that doesn't want insects in the house at all, so that is why I was wondering about the pellets which I think are the best if there were no insects. So hopefully I should be getting my Beardie next month.

Sorry about the confusion. I must have not explained that bit clearly or maybe you missed out when I said Step Mum and just Mum.

 

[Yaaeee]

Okay one day a week away from your dragon will be fine, make sure to set his lights up on timers. Thanks for the clarification. You still have to understand though most dragons don't take immediately to pellets. Id recommend getting an older adult dragon that's already switched to pellets and greens. That way you'll know for sure that it can sustain on that type of diet. The 80/20 ratio will benefit you in this case as they only need 20 live matter. As opposed to 20/80 as a baby or juvi. If you get a baby you'll risk it refusing pellets & you have no way to feed it, which ultimately will lead to starvation. You can also try canned bugs, though I heard those are just as nutritionally deficient as pellets.

& in response to pellets having "everything" a bearded dragon needs that is quite inaccurate. You have to realize (like most dog and cat foods because you compared the three) many are filled with useless fillers, unneeded by the body. Check out the ingredient list for those perfect pellets. Some have JUST enough nutrition for survival, but in no way are thriving worthy. It's something to consider. Also just because it says "complete diet" etc, doesn't mean it is. It's marketing kid, they'll tell you whatever they need to sell a product lol. Animal food laws differ from humans. They can say whatever they want on packaging to an extent. Live protein will always be more beneficial to these types of animals. Overall more nutritious, usually accepted immediately, and will lead to a happy beardie. Bugs come with Beardies... That's just the way it is. If you can't convince your mother into bugs, again a beardie may not be for you. good luck.

 

[TheReptile838]

But what if they say that the pellets are a complete diet because they are? They might not be lying? They have the ingredients in small letters saying that the amount of protein is the right amount for them. They might not be lying about that?
In the reptile shop I would go to have 6 month old beardies and they might have one or two a little bit older.

 

[Yaaeee]

Here's the ingredient list from the Exo terra juvenile pellet:
Ingredients: Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Fish Meal, Wheat Flour, Wheat Gluten Meal, Rice Hulls, Dried Earthworm, Fish Oil, Textured Soy Protein Product, Rice Bran, Dried Lima Bean, Calcium Carbonate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Salt, DL-Methionine, Choline Chloride, Lecithin, Aluminum Calcium Silicate, Sodium Bicarbonate, Yeast Extract, Silicon Dioxide, Licorice, Dried Endive, Anise, Garlic Powder, Ground Chinese Cassia, Aloe Vera Gel Concentrate, Paprika, Ginger, Potato Meal, Juniper Extract, Papaya, Ethoxyquin (preservative), Vitamin A Acetate, Cholecalciferol (source of Vitamin D3), Vitamin E Supplement, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Vitamin B12 Supplement, Folic Acid, d-Calcium Pantothenate, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate (source of vitamin C), Inositol, Biotin, Niacin, Manganous Oxide, Ferrous Carbonate, Zinc Oxide, Copper Oxide, Calcium Iodate, Cobalt Carbonate.


The only insect on this ingredient list is earthworm which isn't even a good staple for bearded dragons. Something to consider.

& at 6 months most of the amount of live protein is still high. I was recommending an adult dragon 2-3 years old. You might have to check craigslist or your local ad source. Or out in a request at your local shop.

 

[Taterbug]

The ingredients don't sound that bad actually, having read them. I still wouldn't use them as an only food. I'm sorry this is not what you want to hear, but we are looking out for the dragon and also for your future enjoyment of the pet. We see too many sick and unhappy dragons here to not try and get new owners off in the right foot.

My problem with pellets is two things.
1 they are dry. Dragons are already prone to dehydration in captivity, dry food makes it worse. They need to be moistened and seam pretty gross and unpalatable. They are not what a dragon expects to be food. Processing destroys some nutrients, so they need to use artificial ones. Those are not as good as natural ones from fresh food.

2 they may or may not be "complete". I don't think the companies are outright lying but in reality their is no "daily recommended value" for reptiles. There is no way to say they are complete because there is no data on what is needed. The companies can say whatever they want because there is no law forcing them to say only truthful things like human food has. These are the same companies that sell products that veterinarians say never to use because they can kill your pet. Don't trust them.

We have best guesses and advice from the folks who have been keeping reptiles for years and years but even they can't say dragons need this exact amount of that nutrient to be healthy. And they are doing it for the love of their animals, not to sell bags and bags of product.

Generally it's best to try to replicate natural food sources, and even then we don't know everything they do and eat in the wild. That's why a previous poster recommend an older dragon (maybe over a year) since they will mostly eat veggies anyway.

Instead of trying to convince the dragon to eat something else, could you help change your moms mind? There are some bug options that aren't as offensive as others, like Phoenix worms that stay in little cups all the time and are super healthy for the dragon.

 

[TheReptile838]

But if the people who have had reptiles for years are just guessing then how do they know that it isn't the best before trying it with Beardies. How do you know for sure that they can't survive on it if people haven't even tried it out? I have seen many reviews by people saying that they use it as a staple (although I'd use veg and greens too) and they their Bearded Dragon has survived on them for years. Also someone who has been rescuing and breeding beardies said that they have been using it to feed their dragons since the year 2000. There is a site that tells you about the different foods and they said about the pellets and they said that they replace insects and veg.
What exactly is the nutrition that the insects have that pellets don't?
I mentioned before that my mum will never give in to any insects.
What about freeze-dried insects? Are they better?

 

[Taterbug]

I wasn't trying to give the impression dragons can't live on them, just that I don't trust them and I wouldn't close to feed them over live prey. I do have a bag, and don't consider them a poison or useless.

I'm very skeptical myself about a lot of the advice out there so honestly I can appreciate you challenging the suggestions. You are correct that it could very well be an acceptable diet for them. I'm not in the same boat (my fiancé is understanding enough to let me breed cockroaches) so I haven't considered it or done too much research into it, and what I have done as led me to the conclusion I shared before. It's a good opportunity to think about it at any rate, and I apologize for the hugely long response. I'm keenly interested in dragon nutrition so I'll probably dig into it more when I get home too.

As for guessing, it's years of trial and error. And yeah, it's how you describe, who knows until they try. But most people aren't willing to run experiments on their pets. There are lots of breeders and owners who feed pellets as part of the diet, and I'm sure ones who feed only pellets. I don't know those people or their dragons so I can't say anything one way or the other. But on the same note, husbandry doesn't improve if we aren't willing to question it. Sometimes it yields more options for husbandry and sometimes it yields sick or dead animals. I for one don't want to give advise I can't stand behind or wouldn't do for my own pet.

The only thing I have experience with is that my dragons don't recognize them as food the same way they do insects. That's not necessarily a problem, but insects are important for their fat and (animal) protein content especially for growing babies. These are not as available in plants if at all, though may be in pellets. Bugs also move, which makes them attractive, one of the downsides of freeze dried ones. Babies in particular may have less interest in non moving food.

The danger with anything that strays from the standard practice is that these animals are incredibly hardy. I doubt there have been many dragons that have died from pellets. They can survive for years in conditions that are utterly horrible, but that doesn't mean they are thriving or should be kept that way. (By this I'm not talking about pellets, but no calcium or UVB, no heat or dragons simple starved to death) Nutritional deficiencies can take years to manifest and be crippling but that is true with any improper diet.

With pellets you run the risk of having fewer options if your dragon refuses them or goes off them. Sometimes they are just done eating a certain food, and can't be convinced otherwise.

It really sounds like you are doing your research and I am not trying to dissuade or discourage you. It's not a path I would choose but I can't say with confidence it wouldn't be a successful one. The standards set by long time keepers are the ones with repeatable results of strong healthy animals. They aren't the word of law and husbandry doesn't improve if no one questions it. Personally I discourage going against the grain for the first animal because it is difficult to know if something wrong if you don't already have experience. A lot of people don't stay involved with continual learning or some sort of community to know if anything has gone wrong. That is evidenced by the amount of people who find this forum after years of subpar care they have given their pet under the belief it's correct. It's hard to know if you dragon is sick if you don't know what a healthy one is like. It will take more effort to learn the options and best way to care for a dragon with the limits of no bugs.

Do you have a good herp vet in your area you could contact for an opinion?

 

[amsmith5297]

Very well stated Taterbug!

 

[Yaaeee]

But if the people who have had reptiles for years are just guessing then how do they know that it isn't the best before trying it with Beardies. How do you know for sure that they can't survive on it if people haven't even tried it out? I have seen many reviews by people saying that they use it as a staple (although I'd use veg and greens too) and they their Bearded Dragon has survived on them for years. Also someone who has been rescuing and breeding beardies said that they have been using it to feed their dragons since the year 2000. There is a site that tells you about the different foods and they said about the pellets and they said that they replace insects and veg.
What exactly is the nutrition that the insects have that pellets don't?
I mentioned before that my mum will never give in to any insects.
What about freeze-dried insects? Are they better?

Like another user mentioned, just because an animal can survive doesn't mean they'll thrive. We aren't saying a dragon can't survive on pellets. But we want you to be prepared if your dragon refuses them. Usually if someone uses pellets they have another type of food for back up given their beardie goes off feed. If your mother won't allow bugs in the house, you have very limited yet options.

I think the biggest thing for you know is trying to find an adult dragon, on a mostly green and pelleted diet. Or a young dragon that was raised on pellets. Also, look into other food sources for that in as situation.

 

[TheReptile838]

Thanks for the answers. I think I will give the pellets a go when I get my Bearded Dragon, but before I do, I might see if my mum will accept freeze dried crickets because they are dead. I think what I'd do is leave veg and pellets with him whilst I'm at school and feed some freeze dried crickets in the morning and some in the afternoon.

And as for the vet, my mum has rabbits so we go to a nearby vets for them and maybe we could ask if they do reptile too. If not, the owner of the reptile shop said that they have a specialist reptile vet that they can tell us about, but the reptile shop is about an hours drive away since I visited ut with my dad where he lives but my mum is who I would get my Beardie with

 

[Bucks121]

please do not get a beardie if ur not gonna feed it live food, mine will not touch pellets or a dead cricket if it doesnt move at all he wont eat it and alot of dragons are like this i just recently been getting him to eat veg but it needs to be on paper towel (white,green color)

your just going to take away a possible healthy life he my have with someone else

like someone else said phoenix worms stay in a tub and dont even crawl fast or at all i cant believe your mother would even consider getting you one knowing they eat live food and isnt going to allow it its still a living creature

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