Bearded Dragon MBD. I don't think he has long left :(

[Lazmarr]

It's been a long time since I last posted on these forums (back in 2012 I think).
Both users Esther19 and Drache613 gave me some advice and helped me in the situation I was in when my on of my bearded dragons developed what looked like MBD. He wouldn't eat much at all, maybe a few crickets and a mouthful or two of salad. I changed both of my beardies (Hades and Cerberus') bulbs, purchased some poultry and squash baby food and started using calcium and multivit powders. I purchased my two beardies from a pet shop in, I think, 2009.
At the time he was reluctant to eat the baby food, but he eventually tasted it and kept eating it. But only for a short while. His bad arm didn't improve, I removed most of the things for him to climb on; although I left his wooden tree he loved to sleep on. I kept some rocks in his tank. But still his arm didn't improve.
Since then his appetite for anything at all has just gotten worse. He barely eats anything at all. Food either myself or my mum prepares goes almost untouched; he eats maybe one mouthful and nothing more. He used to love locusts and wax worms, eating quite a few of them. I purchased more yesterday, to try and entice him to eating, but he doesn't want to eat anything at all. He ate two small locusts and a couple of wax worms today. He barely has any strength at all, only sleeping, resting his head. My other beardie is fine, eating anything we give him, and I don't know why the other is the way he is. He's so skinny, frail and bony. I pick him up and give him a hold and he perks up a little but closes his eyes and falls asleep. I really don't think he has long left.

 

[EllenD]

I'm very sorry your beardie has taken a turn for the worse, but don't give up on him just yet. The physical damage that results from MBD doesn't typically reverse itself, so I'm not surprised that his arm never fully recovered. Once you get them under an adequate UVB tube light, get the temperatures inside their enclosure within the correct ranges, get them on a healthy diet, and give them proper Calcium and multivitamin supplements, you typically stop the MBD from getting worse, stop any further physical disabilities, start building up the calcium and vitamin D3 in their bodies, increase their bone density, increase their appetites, and get them eating regularly, putting weight on, building muscle strength, and then they usually learn to cope with any permanent disabilities and live a pretty full and happy life. If years later the dragon starts to exhibit the same symptoms again, you need to do exactly what you did the first time: Review his enclosure and setup, check his enclosure temperatures, make sure that you remembered to replace his UVB tube every 6 months or once every year, depending on what UVB tube you got him, make sure his UVB tube is at the correct distance from the basking spot and is right alongside the basking light, that he's getting at least 12-14 hours of UVB light and basking light every day, evaluate whether or not he is getting enough Calcium supplement, etc.

If you think he was born in 2009 then that makes him only 8 or so years old, so he should still have some good years left if you can figure out what is going on again, that's why you don't want to get discouraged right off the bat and just become depressed because you're sure he's dying....He may not make it much longer, or he might live for another 5 years, you just don't know, but I can guarantee he won't make it much longer if we don't figure out why he's not eating again. So let's get some photos of him, his entire enclosure, and his lighting up here, and then describe his lighting in detail, newly measure his basking spot, Hot Side, and Cool Side temperatures and list them, list the substrate in his tank, etc.

When is the last time he pooped? Was it a normal poop, or was it runny or did it smell extremely bad? When is the last time he had a fecal test done at his reptile vet? How about standard blood work?

When was his UVB tube last replaced? Is there any clear, plastic cover on the UVB tube fixture, over the tube? Is his UVB tube on top of a mesh or glass lid?

And the big question: What, if any changes have occurred to his enclosure, lighting, temps, diet, photoperiod length, etc. since he was last healthy and eating and when he lost his appetite and started losing weight? Have you changed anything or stopped doing anything that the moderators who helped you the last time told you to do?

 

[Lazmarr]

I'm very sorry your beardie has taken a turn for the worse, but don't give up on him just yet. The physical damage that results from MBD doesn't typically reverse itself, so I'm not surprised that his arm never fully recovered. Once you get them under an adequate UVB tube light, get the temperatures inside their enclosure within the correct ranges, get them on a healthy diet, and give them proper Calcium and multivitamin supplements, you typically stop the MBD from getting worse, stop any further physical disabilities, start building up the calcium and vitamin D3 in their bodies, increase their bone density, increase their appetites, and get them eating regularly, putting weight on, building muscle strength, and then they usually learn to cope with any permanent disabilities and live a pretty full and happy life. If years later the dragon starts to exhibit the same symptoms again, you need to do exactly what you did the first time: Review his enclosure and setup, check his enclosure temperatures, make sure that you remembered to replace his UVB tube every 6 months or once every year, depending on what UVB tube you got him, make sure his UVB tube is at the correct distance from the basking spot and is right alongside the basking light, that he's getting at least 12-14 hours of UVB light and basking light every day, evaluate whether or not he is getting enough Calcium supplement, etc.

If you think he was born in 2009 then that makes him only 8 or so years old, so he should still have some good years left if you can figure out what is going on again, that's why you don't want to get discouraged right off the bat and just become depressed because you're sure he's dying....He may not make it much longer, or he might live for another 5 years, you just don't know, but I can guarantee he won't make it much longer if we don't figure out why he's not eating again. So let's get some photos of him, his entire enclosure, and his lighting up here, and then describe his lighting in detail, newly measure his basking spot, Hot Side, and Cool Side temperatures and list them, list the substrate in his tank, etc.

When is the last time he pooped? Was it a normal poop, or was it runny or did it smell extremely bad? When is the last time he had a fecal test done at his reptile vet? How about standard blood work?

When was his UVB tube last replaced? Is there any clear, plastic cover on the UVB tube fixture, over the tube? Is his UVB tube on top of a mesh or glass lid?

And the big question: What, if any changes have occurred to his enclosure, lighting, temps, diet, photoperiod length, etc. since he was last healthy and eating and when he lost his appetite and started losing weight? Have you changed anything or stopped doing anything that the moderators who helped you the last time told you to do?

Hi Ellen, thank you for replying. I'm on my phone at the moment so I will have to keep my reply quite short. I will answer as many questions as I can.
I bought him in either 2008/2009 and I think he was about a year old as well although I can't really remember that far.
As for what's in his tank I changed out the sand I was using at first to paper towels, since I was advised that they can ingest sand and become impacted.
His temperatures, depending on time of year, are around 25C-30C on his cool side and the basking area is up to 40C. Being the summer and the vivarium in the conservatory, I cycle the ceramic heat bulb since it can get quite warm.
He last pooped today and yesterday, both seemed normal dark brown with white bits. Yesterday's poop was in a bath, wasn't sure if he was a bit dehydrated so I bathed him a bit. There was nothing in it and didn't smell. I'm not sure if he urinated though.
I don't have any reptile vets near me. The nearest "reptile vet" I have isn't particularly good. The last time I went the vet had admitted they didn't know anything about reptiles and I would have to travel a 2-3 hour drive to their specialist. I can't drive and I don't have a lot of money to spend since I'm a student and I can't risk taking him on public transport.
Both UVB bulb were last changed a few months ago. They're Acadia D3 12% UVB bulbs. These were recommended the last time I came here. There isn't anything covering the UVB bulbs they're attached to the vivarium ceiling.
I honestly don't know. We moved their vivarium to the conservatory and that's about it.
I'm starting to think he may have injured himself a bit. He winces a little when I pick him up to move him. So I think he may just be in pain. The last he ate was yesterday and he is just sleeping, eyes closed, at the moment.

 

[Lazmarr]

I think he has gone now. I think he has died. I put him in his tank for a bit to let him warm up, came back to check how he was doing he had moved but was still breathing. I came back again a little while later but I think he has gone, he isn't rigid but isn't moving either, not even his eyes. I thought I could feel his heartbeat but it could have been mine. I got him out but he was all wet on his mouth and not breathing. A bit of brownish liquid came out as well. I don't know

 

[AHBD]

Oh wow, poor, poor creature. That is the most emaciated dragon I've ever seen. I'm not sure how he got that bad but he was too far gone even 50 grams ago no doubt. This is shocking....I'm very sorry this happened. How did he get that skeletal, I can't imagine. It's not MBD that killed him, they can live with a bit of deformity....he literally starved to death for some reason.

Do you have pics of your other dragon ? What condition is it in ? Be sure to come here for help long before the condition that this dragon was in, or see a good vet .

 

[Reptilelady]

OMG poor beardie! I am so sorry

 

[Lazmarr]

Oh wow, poor, poor creature. That is the most emaciated dragon I've ever seen. I'm not sure how he got that bad but he was too far gone even 50 grams ago no doubt. This is shocking....I'm very sorry this happened. How did he get that skeletal, I can't imagine. It's not MBD that killed him, they can live with a bit of deformity....he literally starved to death for some reason.

Do you have pics of your other dragon ? What condition is it in ? Be sure to come here for help long before the condition that this dragon was in, or see a good vet .

I don't think it was the MBD either, he has had it since I got him, and didn't seem to affect him much. I came the last time because I didn't want it to get much worse and wanted to try and get his weight up, since he was pretty skinny back then in 2012 as well. He's always had a bad appetite and very picky when it came to food, never eating more than a mouthful or so of salad or a few crickets/locusts/wax worms, even though quite a bit of salad/cucumber/letuce/celery/peppers and some other food was put out for him. My mum and I tried cutting up the vegies different sizes, small or large, but after a mouthful he just left it. He sometimes wouldn't eat anything for a day or two, but would always eat something the next day.
He seemed pretty active all the time though and enjoyed being out. I knew something was wrong when he wouldn't eat anything at all, completely ignoring his food, not even attempting to eat it, and was all lethargic. I don't know why he stopped eating completely but I think he may have injured himself pretty bad, being how skinny he was and wincing when I handled him, which is why he completely stopped. I was told by one of the reptile pet store owners near me that reptiles can get eating disorders, and sometimes they don't fully recover.
My other dragon is in much better condition, he eats almost everything we give him, only leaving a few scraps occasionally; and he weighs around 400g or so. The setup is the same layout as Cerberus', the only difference is he has a different log and a large structure; he has the same bulbs and ceramic heat lamp, with temperatures pretty much the same (it's slightly taller so gets a little cooler). I can post some pictures, but after I sort out the viv and give it a deep clean, I don't want to risk my other guy getting anything if there was something else causing an issue
I'll definitely come here much quicker, if I suspect anything is wrong. I would have came much sooner but I had no idea something was really really bad until Friday, we just thought he was being his usual self. I'll keep a look out for vets near me and see if any can treat reptiles in emergencies (if I can't find one that handles reptiles), the last one I went to was supposed to be a reptile vet but it turned out it was only at their large centre.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Oh dear, he wasn't looking good, I am sorry he passed.
How long had he been that thin? I hope your other one is doing well & stays healthy.


Tracie

 

[Lazmarr]

Hello,

Oh dear, he wasn't looking good, I am sorry he passed.
How long had he been that thin? I hope your other one is doing well & stays healthy.


Tracie

Hi Tracie, he's always been really thin, ever since I got him. I think he had slowly been getting worse but it's been such a gradual change, over the course of years, I hadn't noticed how much worse it had gotten until the other day. He was eating at least a couple of things or a mouthful last week, and seemed pretty active, walking about the floor when I got him out, or climbing his tree.
The other is doing well I think, he's much much bigger than Cerberus was and has no MBD that I can see only a little dried on shed I'll be removing when I bathe him, and I plan to move him up to Cerberus' vivarium once it is dried out, since it'll be a little warmer.
I'll post some pictures of him when I get a chance to after he's settled a little as well.

 

[kingofnobbys]

MBD didn't kill him. Neglect or some kind of cancer are the most likely causes IMO.

Horrific way for him to go .... Only time I've seen a beardie in such a state was back in in 1967 when I went on a camping / hunting trip with my father and BB in the far NW of NSW during a very long drought and again in 2007 when I took my family for a 4x4 fishing/camping trip that covered The Pilbara, Kimberleys, NT, Far North Queensland and was again in the last year of a very long nation wide drought (had been in drought for 7 years !!).

I'm shocked, and find it hard to understand how a pet dragon has become so emaciated and starved looking.
Proper vet diagnosis and care were needed, including attempting syringe feeding using a feeding needle or feeding tube inserted into his stomache..

A necropsy will find the cause if this was not a case of total neglect. If you did everything you could then this has to be due to some serious illness - a cancer or multiple organ failures. ANY VET can do a necropsy.

.... I wont say more, there is no point, and it wont help him now he's dead.

I too would like to see the other dragon and that dragon's viv and lighting , please post images of it along with it's viv and setup and tell us about how it's fed.

 

[EllenD]

I completely agree with Kingofnobbys, I find it very hard to believe that "you just noticed recently that he had gotten much worse". There's no reason to go on about this, I'm sorry he passed away, but I'm actually happy he's no longer suffering. This one was hard to look at, I hope you can appreciate that we all care very much about animals and especially our beardies, and the fact is that it takes months and months for a beardie to become that emaciated, this doesn't happen overnight, or in a few weeks, or even in a month, but rather many months. He obviously needed to see an experienced reptile vet quite a long time ago. So I just hope that you've learned from this, as yes, he had severe MBD, but he didn't DIE from the MBD at all, he died from severe starvation and emaciation. And yes, it could have been cancer, liver disease, kidney disease, or some other serious health issue or disease. But the bottom line and the point we're trying to make to you is that he needed to get to an experienced reptile vet months ago, and should not have been left to just waste away to literally nothing, euthanizing him long ago would have been much more humane.

The main reason I'm telling you all this and trying to educate you as best I can is because you have at least one other bearded dragon, correct? Is he okay? Is he at all sick, thin, not eating, lethargic, etc.? If you think that your other dragon is even a bit off, can we please see a photo of him and his setup so that we can help you get him corrected now, so the same thing doesn't happen? I really would love to help you as best I can with your husbandry for your other beardie, and also well before you decide to buy another beardie, especially a baby who needs proper lighting, temps, and diet throughout his first year. I would even be willing to ship you any extra supplies and equipment I have if you need it, I just need to see his current setup, lighting, etc. to see what needs to be changed, and to see what I can send you to help...