An article about uric acid and gout by Allen Repashy i found interesting

[shmoomunchkin]

Yup, it's a very interesting read and what made me start realizing years ago the correlation on this website of the massive increase in gout cases to the massive increase in the popularity of dubia roaches.

It also made me reformulate my dubia chow to a VERY low (comparatively speaking) protein % when compared to what most people have commercially available.

-Brandon

I read that study, over and over again, when my first baby was dying of kidney failure.

A couple thoughts:

1. There is no control group for bulk breeder dragons (pet store) vs. breeders.
My exotic vet asked me straight away, if my beardie with congenital kidney disease was a store bought beardie, because she was seeing so many dying from congenital kidney disease/gout (he was). ANECDOTAL for sure.

2. I wish wish wish, the Repashy study had baseline kidney values for the beardies. The rest of the study means nothing if you have varied dragons without a control group.

3. The study is awesome in that it addresses the metabolism of dubias! My take away was that I only feed my dubias vegetable based products, and keep them hydrated.

4. It would literally cost a small fortune to do a true study on these feeders. I appreciate this initial study, but my pessimistic side is a bit suspicious, because the author ends up financially benefitting from his product.

5. Is the increase in gout levels due to breeding unhealthy dragons in bulk, or the actual feeders? I have thoughts about this, but really, there is very little research about the actual dragons' baseline health.

Sorry for the wall of words. Since my guy died, I have been racking my brain to do my best for my current baby.

Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

[shmoomunchkin]

This indicates there is a piece I'm missing as the research I'd done made me lean towards gout caused by an acute dosage of UA, overwhelming the Dragon's ability to deal with it.

My understanding is that gout in humans tends to be episodic often occurring after drinking a lot of alcohol (especially beer as it's high in purines) which will cause dehydration, and eating foods like shellfish that are again purine rich.

In this study on bearded dragons, they found UA levels to fall back to baseline levels after 48 hours of fasting. They were feeding crickets, and the purpose of the study was to find the appropriate time to test for baseline UA levels, so it may take longer to process higher amounts of UA after ingesting roaches. Even so, I would think that a few low-protein days should "reset" UA levels in a Dragon with healthy kidneys.

Now it may be that repeated exposure to high levels of UA that are not enough to cause an episode of gout will damage the kidneys and over time create a scenario where gout is more likely. That could explain why gout would occur after years of being fed a high protein diet. It could also be the case that as Dragons age their kidneys become less effective at processing UA for other reasons, and a diet that was well tolerated for years ceases to be as kidney function declines.

*edit* Here is the punchline for the study on UA levels i linked:

Fortunately for humans, it's very treatable. It is so tragic for baby beardies.

 

[Claudiusx]

Gout may be the disease, but the issue with gout is the gout crystal forming in the joints, which occurs after prolonged exposure to high levels of UA, although theoretically start the instant UA levels are high in the blood. The crystals just don't get large enough until enough time has passed with the body have large levels of UA present.

Think of a stalagmite. Now think of that in the joint. it starts off small but it's there. And as long as it keeps getting what it needs to grow, it will. If it doesn't, it wont. It just takes time. Which is why we see the symptoms of gout in dragons once they hit around 2 years old. It's been a constant building up of the crystals in their joints over time.

And in some studies in humans subjects it takes years for the gout crystals that form to be dissolved back into the body. But this is only going to occur if the crystals stop getting the building blocks they need for growth.

A few days break in-between dubia roaches will give the kidneys a break, and it might prevent UA levels from reaching that breaking point of causing crystal formations (are we aware of what that point is?) but it will not significantly help to start reducing the crystals present in the body already.

And remember, lack of symptoms does not equal lack of disease. It is possible for grout crystals to be present in joints without outward symptoms. It just means the dragon is that much closer to being outwardly symptomatic, as it would make sense that the dragon feels the pain in the joint prior to the tale-tale sign of swollen joints.

-Brandon

 

[shmoomunchkin]

Gout may be the disease, but the issue with gout is the gout crystal forming in the joints, which occurs after prolonged exposure to high levels of UA, although theoretically start the instant UA levels are high in the blood. The crystals just don't get large enough until enough time has passed with the body have large levels of UA present.

Think of a stalagmite. Now think of that in the joint. it starts off small but it's there. And as long as it keeps getting what it needs to grow, it will. If it doesn't, it wont. It just takes time. Which is why we see the symptoms of gout in dragons once they hit around 2 years old. It's been a constant building up of the crystals in their joints over time.

And in some studies in humans subjects it takes years for the gout crystals that form to be dissolved back into the body. But this is only going to occur if the crystals stop getting the building blocks they need for growth.

A few days break in-between dubia roaches will give the kidneys a break, and it might prevent UA levels from reaching that breaking point of causing crystal formations (are we aware of what that point is?) but it will not significantly help to start reducing the crystals present in the body already.

And remember, lack of symptoms does not equal lack of disease. It is possible for grout crystals to be present in joints without outward symptoms. It just means the dragon is that much closer to being outwardly symptomatic, as it would make sense that the dragon feels the pain in the joint prior to the tale-tale sign of swollen joints.

-Brandon

I appreciate your post.

My concern is that an animal with congenital kidney issues vs. one with healthy kidneys, can clear uric acid, when they are young and on high protein diets.

I am going to take your post very seriously, and give my 7 month old a break from his dubias.

Your points are well taken with an adult dragon...but, there is a whole lot of anecdotal evidence about increasing gout in baby beardies...unhealthy kidneys to begin with, not a build up over time. They should be able to clear it, if healthy and good breeding practices. Congenital kidney disease as a baby, is horrific.

Sigh. I really wish there was more literature on the uner 1 year old guys!

 

[Axil]

Think of a stalagmite. Now think of that in the joint. it starts off small but it's there. And as long as it keeps getting what it needs to grow, it will. If it doesn't, it wont. It just takes time. Which is why we see the symptoms of gout in dragons once they hit around 2 years old. It's been a constant building up of the crystals in their joints over time.

I see. So if we call gout the presence of gout crystals, then these Dragons had gout long before it became possible to detect and diagnose the fact they had gout.

A few days break in-between dubia roaches will give the kidneys a break, and it might prevent UA levels from reaching that breaking point of causing crystal formations (are we aware of what that point is?)

Maybe?

Uric Acid
In Clinical Veterinary Advisor: Birds and Exotic Pets, 2013

Physiology​

In birds and reptiles, uric acid is the major end-product of protein metabolism. It is produced by the liver and excreted by kidney tubules; impaired elimination is an indication of renal disease. However, normal levels can be seen in early disease states. Approximately 90% of uric acid is secreted by the proximal tubules in avian species. Excreted UA passes through the cloaca and is retropulsed back into the rectum and cecum, where is it broken down by bacteria and is reabsorbed. At least 60% of renal function must be lost for an elevation in uric acid to be seen; therefore, it is not a sensitive indicator of renal disease. The definition of hyperuricemia is as follows: “plasma uric acid concentration higher than the calculated limit of solubility of sodium urate in plasma.” For most birds and reptiles, this theoretical limit of solubility usually is estimated to be about 10.8 mg/dL (600 µmol/L).

No idea how accurate that 10.8mg/dl number is for Bearded Dragons, or if the science has changed in the last ten years. When i went digging that was the best i could find.

Most of the info posting, i'm recycling from a post I made a few weeks back. There was some interesting dicussion on gout in that thread as well.

And remember, lack of symptoms does not equal lack of disease. It is possible for grout crystals to be present in joints without outward symptoms. It just means the dragon is that much closer to being outwardly symptomatic, as it would make sense that the dragon feels the pain in the joint prior to the tale-tale sign of swollen joints.

point well taken, so while gout may be caused by acute doses of UA, the disease is progressive and multiple instances of an acute dose are going to be required to properly diagnose the condition.

 

[Claudiusx]

I read that study, over and over again, when my first baby was dying of kidney failure.

A couple thoughts:

While it is not a perfect study, it still is a "good" study. For decades the scapegoat has been poor breeding practices, and inferior genetics. While it is a very plausible that bad genetics play a role and that it has nothing to do with dietary UA, it is equally plausible that is has everything to do with dietary UA and nothing to do with genetics.

The reason both of those scenarios are possible is for flaws you've already pointed out with the first study.

So, with that in mind, the only logical thing to do is control the one factor that you can control. You're not going to be able to control the genetics no matter how hard you try, no matter how much you bought your dragon for, no matter how long your breeder has been in the industry. The only control you have is the diet.

Bad genetics have been around for a long time. I 've been part of this website for a long time. I've seen and helped with thousands upon thousands of dragons over the years. From my perspective, instances of gout have increased with the increased popularity of dubia roaches. Maybe it's simply because dubia's exacerbate what is already poor genetics that weren't noticed prior, but there is a correlation. And I'm the first to tell you that correlation does not equal causation. But at some point, we need to grasping at straws if thats all we have, and figure out a solution.

Sure, much of it is anecdotal, but if you spend some time researching owners here coming here for help with gout, you will find some very interesting similarities in their care/diet, and cure.

-Brandon

 

[Claudiusx]

I appreciate your post.

My concern is that an animal with congenital kidney issues vs. one with healthy kidneys, can clear uric acid, when they are young and on high protein diets.

Healthy kidneys 100% should be able to clear the UA. But even healthy kidneys aren't going to instantly remove 100% of the UA that was just digested. It's going to circulate and continue to circulate until its all removed. With ill kidneys this process will take longer, sure, but even with healthy kidneys it's not instant. Which means UA is going to be flowing through the system and contributing to the formation of crystals. Good kidneys or not.

Congenital kidney disease as a baby, is horrific.

I 100% agree. And I'm sorry you've had to go through that.

I am going to take your post very seriously, and give my 7 month old a break from his dubias.

I really think this is a good idea. Variety is going to be the key to good health anyways. No one salad item, no one feeder insect, is going to provide all the nutrients your dragon needs. Variety helps fill the gaps.

-Brandon

 

[Claudiusx]

No idea how accurate that 10.8mg/dl

That is still around the standard for bearded dragons. I want to say off memory its around 12mg/dl. Meaning anything over 12mg/dl would be considered elevated levels in a dragon.

-Brandon

 

[shmoomunchkin]

Healthy kidneys 100% should be able to clear the UA. But even healthy kidneys aren't going to instantly remove 100% of the UA that was just digested. It's going to circulate and continue to circulate until its all removed. With ill kidneys this process will take longer, sure, but even with healthy kidneys it's not instant. Which means UA is going to be flowing through the system and contributing to the formation of crystals. Good kidneys or not.

I 100% agree. And I'm sorry you've had to go through that.

I really think this is a good idea. Variety is going to be the key to good health anyways. No one salad item, no one feeder insect, is going to provide all the nutrients your dragon needs. Variety helps fill the gaps.

-Brandon

Good advice!

Long day at work, but this subject is important to me.
Thanks for reading my post and responding. This is an issue that worries, and very much haunts me.

Just bought some superworms for delivery. May just feed my big guy dubias exclusively (with salad) every other day.

He is 7 months, 500 grams and almost 21 inches...quite sure he won't starve! Plus, he likes his greens.

 

[Claudiusx]

He is 7 months, 500 grams and almost 21 inches...quite sure he won't starve! Plus, he likes his greens.

He is a big boy!

Long day at work, but this subject is important to me.

It's obvious you care about him a lot. It's part of the reason why I like these types of discussions.

-Brandon

 

[shmoomunchkin]

He is a big boy!

It's obvious you care about him a lot. It's part of the reason why I like these types of discussions.

-Brandon

Absolutely! Appreciate your experience.
I think I will alternate BSFLs and salad, the dubias, and at this point in his growth some super worms (been very reluctant to introduce these!).

A whole different feeding schedule, buy at the end of the day, my big guy will not starve.

Thanks again for providing a different gestalt on feeding!

 

[xp29]

I would NOT feed dubias exclusively. Roaches in general store uric acid they way we store fat. They can covert uric acid back to protein for energy during lean times. In order to reduce the the amount of ua in dubias you would have to starve them for a period of time. Adult dubias are going to have a higher level than smaller roaches. Other insects don't do this to the extent that roaches do. A variety of crickets, super worms, hornworms, silkworms ect with occasional medium size dubias seems to be more idea to me.

 

[Drache613]

Hello,

Just wanted to chime in about banded crickets. While I don't know the nutritional content of them,
I have used them as a feeder in the past. They are very docile & smaller than the traditional crickets
are. They should be a good overall feeder for most any reptile.
Also, a lot of problems today with gout developing is related to the commercialized dry feed/gutloads
that insects are given. Most are genetically modified organisms which are harmful to human & animal
health causing a myriad of health & organ problems.

Tracie

 

[Axil]

Also, a lot of problems today with gout developing is related to the commercialized dry feed/gutloads
that insects are given. Most are genetically modified organisms which are harmful to human & animal
health causing a myriad of health & organ problems.

I've seen you mention this a few times now. Are there any studies you can recommend that might help a layman like me begin to understand how GMO's are interacting with and negatively impacting organ function? In the past I had come across some theoretical concerns with GMO's, but I was never able to find a study proving harmful effects.

 

[shmoomunchkin]

I would NOT feed dubias exclusively. Roaches in general store uric acid they way we store fat. They can covert uric acid back to protein for energy during lean times. In order to reduce the the amount of ua in dubias you would have to starve them for a period of time. Adult dubias are going to have a higher level than smaller roaches. Other insects don't do this to the extent that roaches do. A variety of crickets, super worms, hornworms, silkworms ect with occasional medium size dubias seems to be more idea to me.

My guy will NOT eat hornworms! I just had some superworms shipped to me and am worried because it sounds as if you can only feed a couple a day?

I am trying to find an alternate source of protein that my guy will eat, to give his body a break from the dubias.
Can I feed him superworms for two days to give him a break from the dubias?