An article about uric acid and gout by Allen Repashy i found interesting

[Axil]

My guy will NOT eat hornworms! I just had some superworms shipped to me and am worried because it sounds as if you can only feed a couple a day?

I am trying to find an alternate source of protein that my guy will eat, to give his body a break from the dubias.
Can I feed him superworms for two days to give him a break from the dubias?

I have become increasingly confused with the opinion superworms and mealworms fall into the "limited treat" category, but BSFL are great.

. Assuming the nutrition information I found is accurate - mealworms have less fat and more protein than BSFL. It's very close, and the BSFL provide lots of calcium which is awesome, but i don't see how you can call one "high in fat" and not the other. Superworms have more protein than either but are a bit more fatty.

BSFL are listed as nutrigrub on this list:

The other issue you hear a lot is the impaction risk of both superworms and mealworms. This has led me to be very cautious about feeding them.

I have slowly increased the amount of superworms I'll give Beebz in a single sitting and I've not noticed any chitin in his poo, he still goes every day with the odd exception he'll wait 2.

Last time I picked up crickets I grabbed a small tin of mealworms from petsmart and will see how that goes as well. Not sure if you mentioned whether your guy likes crickets or not. Beebz loves them, and while i'm not a fan, he gets a lot of exercise chasing them so i try to get them for him now and again. They are very high in protein relative to fat, with a ratio protein/fat ratio even higher than Dubai

So anyway, i've been wondering the same thing you are. If it's fine to feed a meal of BSFL, why not mealworms or superworms? Also funny how your guy won't take hornworms, and Beebz goes nuts as soon as he sees the container.

*edit* here's a Reptifiles article with a nutritional breakdown of insects that seems to be a little more comprehensive than the one i cited. They do point out superworms specifically as a "treat" feeder. It still seems odd to me that superworms at a ratio of 1.18 P/F is considered a lot different than BSFL at 1.55 P/F Crickets and roaches seem to fall between 2-3 P/F

 

[shmoomunchkin]

I have become increasingly confused with the opinion superworms and mealworms fall into the "limited treat" category, but BSFL are great.

. Assuming the nutrition information I found is accurate - mealworms have less fat and more protein than BSFL. It's very close, and the BSFL provide lots of calcium which is awesome, but i don't see how you can call one "high in fat" and not the other. Superworms have more protein than either but are a bit more fatty.

BSFL are listed as nutrigrub on this list:
View attachment 79918

The other issue you hear a lot is the impaction risk of both superworms and mealworms. This has led me to be very cautious about feeding them.

I have slowly increased the amount of superworms I'll give Beebz in a single sitting and I've not noticed any chitin in his poo, he still goes every day with the odd exception he'll wait 2.

Last time I picked up crickets I grabbed a small tin of mealworms from petsmart and will see how that goes as well. Not sure if you mentioned whether your guy likes crickets or not. Beebz loves them, and while i'm not a fan, he gets a lot of exercise chasing them so i try to get them for him now and again. They are very high in protein relative to fat, with a ratio protein/fat ratio even higher than Dubai

So anyway, i've been wondering the same thing you are. If it's fine to feed a meal of BSFL, why not mealworms or superworms? Also funny how your guy won't take hornworms, and Beebz goes nuts as soon as he sees the container.

*edit* here's a Reptifiles article with a nutritional breakdown of insects that seems to be a little more comprehensive than the one i cited. They do point out superworms specifically as a "treat" feeder. It still seems odd to me that superworms at a ratio of 1.18 P/F is considered a lot different than BSFL at 1.55 P/F Crickets and roaches seem to fall between 2-3 P/F

I so wish he would eat hornworms!

I would like to try the 48 hours without the dubias, but other than BSFLs, I cannot find a good/low, uric acid source.

Crickets have been a big NO since he was a baby.

Sigh. I may just have to keep up with the greens, BSFLs and dubias.

 

[Axil]

I so wish he would eat hornworms!

I would like to try the 48 hours without the dubias, but other than BSFLs, I cannot find a good/low, uric acid source.

Crickets have been a big NO since he was a baby.

Sigh. I may just have to keep up with the greens, BSFLs and dubias.

I mostly like hornworms for the water. Ok i mostly like them because Beebz runs around like a maniac to get them, but i most value the water content. They don't have enough protein (low fat too) to really substitute for a meal i don't think.

@Claudiusx makes a good case for mealworms. With your guy being over 20", i think the impaction risk is probably pretty minimal. Though when he says he feeds them as part of a variety I'm not sure he means only mealworms for a day.

It seems like most people feed one insect primarily in a session, or I'm misreading their posts that way. I've started doing some of my feedings like 10 Dubai, 25 BSFL 4 superworms and a hornworm. For dinner tonight he had something like 25 crickets (we lost count) and 4 mealworms. Weight wise it was 90%+ crickets though as i'm still easing into the mealworms staring at dragon feces every day like a degenerate.

 

[xp29]

If you stopped feeding every insect that has some negative value attached to it, there wouldn't be anything left to feed. I think the big issue with dubias is more because of how we keep them than anything. Babies need protein, breeders need protein, feeders i will not be giving any protein. And even at that they need to be kept hungry for a while to purge the uric acid from them. My plan is basicly starve their rumps off then gut load them with greens before feeding them. As far as the other feeders, i think it is a mistake to offer only one feeder. In nature they eat what they can find, so they may get 6 grasshoppers, or they may get 1 and 3 smaller lizards and a cricket. And that has worked well enough that they have survived this long. I think per feeding, maybe 3 or 4 this a couple that and a few of the other. Plus salad of course. If an overweight beardie is the result i think exercise is the answer. Heck if we set on our rear-ends and don't get out and exercise the same thing happens to us (just look at Kim Kardashian... opps i apologize lol). Personally i think exercise is what most EVERYONE is overlooking. It don't matter how active they are in their habitat, there is only so much room for them to move, explore, RUN, climb, jump, dig. Well you get the point, all the things they would do if they weren't pets.

 

[hdochow]

i'll toss some info into your discussion just for the heck of it. all personal experience based.

sir henry lives on dubias. they do not get fed protein, just his leftover salads, outside the rare day a couple times a year he eats the entire thing. tori makes him HUGE salads! so i don't think that really counts as them having a protein diet.

we do not breed the roaches, do anything as far as temps, humidity, etc. yet we have ones in the bin that are way too small at this point to have been ones we purchased. maybe our conditions are "just right"? when they get too big and he refuses them, they get fed to the wild geese in the back yard. they love them! and hey, SOMEONE out there is eating them.

totally as a preventative for liver health/gout prevention he gets black cherry powder (in water) from tracie's website 4 times a week. he refuses to eat anything that is powder, so we use that as a way to get his liquid vitamins and calcium in. great for hydration too.

also, a couple times a year, when it seems he is tired of the dubias, we'll get a round of mealworms/superworms/and silkworms. like 50 silks and 100 each of the other two. those will be fed off entirely before we go back to the dubias. he's currently in the worm cycle right now.

his vet is of the opinion that the issue with dubias is more what they are fed as opposed to what the roach bodies do naturally. he did say that more needs to be studied on the topic in general, and what he has seen info wise is mostly from the community like us instead of the science community, but for now he totally approves of the above feeding schedule.

both sir henry and taela the parakeet have their annual check up next week so i'll see if his opinion has changed at all from last year. from what i can tell, there isn't a problem. no joint swelling, slow moving, seeming to be in pain, etc.

 

[xp29]

Protein is what increases the ua level in the dubias (or any other roach). By feeding them the salads your are inadvertently keeping the ua low, which is what you want.

 

[Claudiusx]

why not mealworms or superworms?

Because herd mentality has demonized them for decades.

I've never once seen a dragon here who has suffered in impaction solely from appropriately sized superworms or mealworms. There is always other underlying issues related to husbandry. Impactions used to be a lot more common here, but it was back when proper temperatures weren't stressed as hard, when calci-sand and crushed walnut were top choices for substrates.

I've said for years that superworms and mealworms are a fine feeder for reasons you've already discovered yourself. It's so engrained in the normal advice and spread everywhere that people don't even question it.

When I was breeding, mealworms were a staple feeder for my hatchlings, along with crickets, and later into my breeding, dubia roaches.

Superworms, mealworms, dubia roaches, and silkworms are staples for my dragons. For growing dragons I throw BSFL to the mix. I would do crickets too if I was still housing lots of dragons.

-Brandon

 

[shmoomunchkin]

i'll toss some info into your discussion just for the heck of it. all personal experience based.

sir henry lives on dubias. they do not get fed protein, just his leftover salads, outside the rare day a couple times a year he eats the entire thing. tori makes him HUGE salads! so i don't think that really counts as them having a protein diet.

we do not breed the roaches, do anything as far as temps, humidity, etc. yet we have ones in the bin that are way too small at this point to have been ones we purchased. maybe our conditions are "just right"? when they get too big and he refuses them, they get fed to the wild geese in the back yard. they love them! and hey, SOMEONE out there is eating them.

totally as a preventative for liver health/gout prevention he gets black cherry powder (in water) from tracie's website 4 times a week. he refuses to eat anything that is powder, so we use that as a way to get his liquid vitamins and calcium in. great for hydration too.

also, a couple times a year, when it seems he is tired of the dubias, we'll get a round of mealworms/superworms/and silkworms. like 50 silks and 100 each of the other two. those will be fed off entirely before we go back to the dubias. he's currently in the worm cycle right now.

his vet is of the opinion that the issue with dubias is more what they are fed as opposed to what the roach bodies do naturally. he did say that more needs to be studied on the topic in general, and what he has seen info wise is mostly from the community like us instead of the science community, but for now he totally approves of the above feeding schedule.

both sir henry and taela the parakeet have their annual check up next week so i'll see if his opinion has changed at all from last year. from what i can tell, there isn't a problem. no joint swelling, slow moving, seeming to be in pain, etc.

Interesting! The few good articles I found on Dubias and uric acid levels, reported that dubia breeders who feed pet food and other high protein diets, are contributing to the problem.

I ONLY gutload my dubias with greens, carrots and apples. So fingers crossed that this will be safe for my guy. So far, things have been good.

Thanks for this post, it kind of mirrors what my reptile vet has been saying.

 

[xp29]

If the dubias had a protein based diet before you got them, they still need to go hungry for a bit to force them to utilize any ua they have already stored. I need to see if i can find info on how long that takes.

 

[shmoomunchkin]

If the dubias had a protein based diet before you got them, they still need to go hungry for a bit to force them to utilize any ua they have already stored. I need to see if i can find info on how long that takes.

Any info is appreciated!
I don't feed my new guys for at least 24-36 hours, but it looks like I may need to wait a bit longer.

 

[Axil]

I've said for years that superworms and mealworms are a fine feeder for reasons you've already discovered yourself. It's so engrained in the normal advice and spread everywhere that people don't even question it.

Well I appreciate you sharing your experience, and I know I'm not the only one. So please keep generating minority reports.

Superworms, mealworms, dubia roaches, and silkworms are staples for my dragons.

And thanks for clarifying (for me, I'm sure you've mentioned it before) you consider them staples. As you point out the "only as a treat" 'rule' is so ubiquitous for superworms/mealworms, I was tempted to think: "well maybe he means he gives his dragons like 4 instead of 2"

 

[Groggyfroggie]

Thank you for sharing this article and everyone chiming in! I'm learning a lot in this thread. Draco's almost an adult dragon now so I'd love to try out some new feeders beside dubias. I've only fed my dubia roaches vegetable and they are still breeding so the weather here must be optimal for them

 

[Fordispreme]

I really enjoyed that article. I was able to find this graph in the study referenced about German cockroaches:

I think the link to the study is dead now, i wasn't able to follow the article to it, or i'm misremembering how i got there.

I wish I had a better understanding of what these numbers mean when compared to the UA levels of processing protein. Also, i'm not sure if UA ingested directly may be more problematic than UA broken down from protein. It is possible that some metabolic mechanism exist to in some way limit the digestion of additional protien, that would be ineffective against UA already free in the insect.

@xp29 did you have any luck finding the UA content of banded crickets? I'm unclear as to whether free UA is only present in roaches, or if it just present in larger amounts than other insects. I'd imagine some amount of UA has to exist in a cricket that hasn't passed all the waste from the protein it digested yet, but is that half what is present in a Dubai? 10%? 1%? I have no idea, and that would be useful to know.

@Claudiusx around what protein level did you settle on? Or is it less a percentage, and more you just feed things you know are low in protein? I've been using Dubai Chow, or whatever dubai.com is calling thier roach food. I believe it is 17% protein. They reference that number in an article on their site that initially pointed me to the repashy article.

They also claim they've seen no indications the incidents of Gout in Bearded Dragon's are increasing... They make no mention of how they went about looking for any such trend. I would like to see more detailed explanations and links to studies for deeper understanding. I always read articles like this with interest. Recently I even became interested in how to create an article summary and found https://papersowl.com/blog/how-to-write-summary-of-article for myself. Now I continue to study this issue. I have already found many different opinions from different specialists. And... unsurprisingly they don't think you need to worry much about feeding Dubai to your Dragon. In fairness they do recommend using a variety of feeders.

From the above linked article:


If Claudiusx harping on the importance of variety in a Dragon's diet hasn't convinced someone yet. The fact that a website with Dubai in the name is telling you not to feed only Dubai, ought to be a wake up call.

Like you, I also liked the article. It prompted me to study the connections between insect nutrition and health.