Am I Being a Bad Beardie Momma?

[uabmicurn]

Hello All!

I'm SO glad I found this website, though I'm feeling a little conflicted because I'm seeing some things that I may be doing right with my beardie, but some things I might to be showing signs of "unfit parenthood!"
I have a few questions that I'm hoping I can get help with, that range from size, to feeding, to brumation, etc. I hope you all will help!

We have had our sweet boy, Hughey, for around a month now. (Well, we were told he was probably a 'he!') We bought him from a local mom and pop pet store and they told us he was probably around 8 months old. He is approximately 11 inches long (I didn't want to wake him this late up to measure him, so I'm guesstimating) from tip of nose to tip of tail. I know you can't know for certain their age, unless you know when they were born, but does this sound roughly correct? Also, if he is around 9 months old by this time, will I be able to tell for certain if he is, indeed, a he?

As far as feeding, my guy is not eating anywhere near what others have posted under the Feeding Forum! On a 'good day,' Hughey might eat 7 crickets or so. The most I can remember him eating is 11. And those numbers are for a day's worth. Some days, he won't eat any. (I do dust the crickets with a calcium powder). I keep romaine lettuce on hand, but it's the same; some days he'll eat it and other days he won't . There have been a couple of times when he'll go a day or two and won't eat anything. Is this normal? Also, is it okay if we 'hand feed' him? My little boy loves to hold the cricket between his fingers and let Hughey 'eat out of his hand.' Same with the lettuce. Is this okay? If not, how should we be feeding him? He 'normally' has been pooping about every 3 days or so and ever since we've had him, his poop has been pretty wet, but rather than a brown color, it's always been a bright green color, almost a 'kelly green' color, if you will. Again, is this okay? He does have that white, urate stuff that he eliminates as well. Actually, the first time he pooped after we brought him home, was when he was lying on my son's chest, while they were watching TV! I told Noah that just meant that Hughey was already so comfortable with him and his new home, that he felt comfortable enough to 'share the love!' :lol:

One last question: if Hughey's age is around 9 months or so, is it possible for him to be going in to the brumation period (sorry if I don't have the terminology correct). For the past 3 or 4 days, he has been sleeping most of the day (and all night); not eating much at all, if anything; not only wanting to stay inside his little house, but also burrowing himself under the substrate, as well as the newspaper under the substrate; his color seems to have darkened (alot) and just, overall, being very lethargic and uninterested. He will wake up and sit on Noah's lap, but just generally seems 'blah.' I don't want to 'make him get up to play,' if we need to let him be, I just want to make sure it's not something to be concerned about. We have several reptile vets in my area, and I'm finding out the best one to take him to, just to have him checked out anyway.

I apologize for all the questions, but I would greatly appreciate any help any of you may have! I've been trying to find reliable information on the internet, as anytime I go to the mom and pop store we bought him at, or Pet Supplies Plus or PetsMart when I buy crickets, I always get different answers from each place! This website seems like an awesome resource for learning valuable information to take the best possible care of our sweet, little guy! Noah and I have fallen in love with Hughey and want to make sure we do right by him. Thanks again! Melissa

 

[Ronniexx]

Hi...firstly welcome to the site...I have found it very useful as a learning aid here, and also everyone is so nice..and they love love love beardies.....I am a new beardie mom so cant help you with your questions really...but hopefully someone will jump in and try and help you soon....just wanted to say welcome..

 

[randommonks]

We have had our sweet boy, Hughey, for around a month now. (Well, we were told he was probably a 'he!') http://www.beardeddragon.org/articles/sexing/ You can use that caresheet to help you determine sex, or take a picture similar to the ones shown there and post for others to help you guess We bought him from a local mom and pop pet store and they told us he was probably around 8 months old. He is approximately 11 inches long (I didn't want to wake him this late up to measure him, so I'm guesstimating) from tip of nose to tip of tail. I know you can't know for certain their age, unless you know when they were born, but does this sound roughly correct http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Growth.html I used that growth chart to give an estimate of how old Darwin was when I got him ? Also, if he is around 9 months old by this time, will I be able to tell for certain if he is, indeed, a he By then it should be fairly easy?

As far as feeding, my guy is not eating anywhere near what others have posted under the Feeding Forum! On a 'good day,' Hughey might eat 7 crickets or so. The most I can remember him eating is 11. And those numbers are for a day's worth. Some days, he won't eat any. Not normal in a dragon that is should be growing rapidly. What size are you feeding and what are your basking/cool side temperatures? Also, do you have a UVB, and what kind? (I do dust the crickets with a calcium powder). I keep romaine lettuce on hand http://www.beautifuldragons.com/Nutrition.html Use that website for a great list of veggies and when/how often to feed. Lettuce of any kind basically lacks good nutrients, and is mainly water. Try going for a green (collard, turnip, mustard) as your staple green , but it's the same; some days he'll eat it and other days he won't . There have been a couple of times when he'll go a day or two and won't eat anything. Is this normal? Also, is it okay if we 'hand feed' him? Some dragons tend to become dependent on hand feeding to eat, but it's up to you My little boy loves to hold the cricket between his fingers and let Hughey 'eat out of his hand.' Not to scare you, but dragons have a nasty bite, especially going after prey. Make sure that you supervise all feedings, and that your dragon doesn't have to lunge for the crickets Same with the lettuce. Is this okay? If not, how should we be feeding him? He 'normally' has been pooping about every 3 days or so and ever since we've had him, his poop has been pretty wet, but rather than a brown color, it's always been a bright green color, almost a 'kelly green' color, if you will. Again, is this okay? Do you feed pellets at all? That can cause some unnaturally colored poop. A fecal wouldn't hurt, and if you don't take your dragon in, can be very affordable He does have that white, urate stuff that he eliminates as well. Actually, the first time he pooped after we brought him home, was when he was lying on my son's chest, while they were watching TV! I told Noah that just meant that Hughey was already so comfortable with him and his new home, that he felt comfortable enough to 'share the love!' :lol:

One last question: if Hughey's age is around 9 months or so, is it possible for him to be going in to the brumation period (sorry if I don't have the terminology correct). Check his temps, low temps can cause lethargy. I have heard that a 9 month old can brumate. For the past 3 or 4 days, he has been sleeping most of the day (and all night); not eating much at all, if anything; not only wanting to stay inside his little house, but also burrowing himself under the substrate What kind of substrate? , as well as the newspaper under the substrate; his color seems to have darkened (alot) and just, overall, being very lethargic and uninterested. He will wake up and sit on Noah's lap, but just generally seems 'blah.' I don't want to 'make him get up to play,' if we need to let him be, I just want to make sure it's not something to be concerned about. We have several reptile vets in my area, and I'm finding out the best one to take him to, just to have him checked out anyway. http://www.herpvetconnection.com/ Try using that website to find a reptile vet in your area, and see if they match up to the list you already have. Lethargy may be brumation, or it could be something else. Darwin was about 6" when I got him about 6 months ago, and I estimate him around 8 months old now and 18". It could be that your dragon is younger than the pet store thought, or that it didn't receive adequate nutrition prior to getting to you, or that it's just genetically smaller than normal.

 

[ButterflyGirl89]

Random pretty much already covered everything, and I have to second everything stated.
But yeah, unless you're feeding colored food pellets the poo doesn't exactly sound normal. Is it really smelly? When my beardie's poo started looking more runny I expected parasites and unfortunately I wound up being correct. She had both pinworms and coccidia.
Parasites can also cause appetite to drop, I've heard. Although I caught hers early enough to not experience that too badly.
I'm not totally sure about my girl's age, either, but I've had her since she was less than 5 inches so she's definitely no older than 5 months and She's currently over 13 inches. Inadequate nutrition and other things can cause Beardies to not grow properly, or he could also be younger. But at 11 inches I think you should be able to tell the sex, at least. A bonus of taking your pet to the vet is that they'll usually give you a more definitive answer. For the fecal test, physical exam, and meds, my total was all less than $70, which I don't think is too bad. Like random said, you don't have to take your beardie with you when you bring in the poo for just the fecal, so you don't have to pay for an office visit/exam straightaway.

If your substrate is sand, and your beardie ate some of the sand, that could be filling up his tummy and causing him to not be hungry, either. But if he's pooping somewhat regularly you might not have to worry about that *too* much.

As also stated, if the temps are too low and/or no uvb light is present that can also cause a decline in appetite, because they aren't digesting as quickly as they should. Basking temps should be around 105-109 and the cool side of the tank should be 78-84.
I don't think you're supposed to dust every meal. More like every other or something like that. I feed Daenarys crickets twice to 3 times a day and I only calcium dust the morning feeding of every other morning, with a multivitamin once a week.

Romaine lettuce isn't very nutritious at all, btw. Collard greens or mustard greens are wayyy better. And any kind of squash. The first veggie I ever got my girl to eat was a cube of butternut squash.

Brumation is a possibility, but I would still worry about the poo and definitely get a fecal done at the least.

Hope everything goes well and best of luck to you!! <3

 

[Kylie]

Lol I think I just need to clean out my cookies

 

[uabmicurn]

Thanks so much for all the helpful replies!!

Okay, so I did find a reptile vet here in the city where I live and took Hughey to see him last week. Though I didn't have a "fresh" fecal sample to take it at the time, the vet said he figured, based on his symptoms, that Hughey does have a parasite. He put him on Flagyl, which I am now giving. Also, sadly, the vet said that Hughey has abnormal "wrists" in that they 'dip' down a little and that they should not look this way. He said it is probably due to a developmental delay, and since we do not know exactly who/where he came from, there is no way to know for sure. Thankfully, he said he should really have no problems from this, other than maybe some arthritis changes when he gets older (around 10 or so). He also placed him on a daily calcium supplement, since he's not eating as well.

Speaking of eating, this has picked up just a little bit. I bought him kale and a pre-packaged mixed veggie mix (for reptiles). He has eaten small amounts of both of these, but still no crickets. The vet said if he is not eating by early this week, especially after getting the first 5 days of Flagyl treatment, to bring him back in. Since last Friday, he has only had 2 poopies...one of which happened too early to be 'viable' for the vet to test and the other one happened right before the Thanksgiving holiday, and the vet is closed until Monday, so I will wait and hopefully, the third time will be my charm. The vet did not think he was impacted.

He is 11.5 inches long and weighed 140 grams. Oh, and I was able to "tell" that Hughey is a he! :wink: They took my handsome guy around the vet's office to show him off, everyone talking about what a pretty color he was and how they hadn't seen a beardie as handsome as Hughey in a long time! Was I a proud momma?! You bet!

I am changing the substrate in his tank, which is aspen pine (I believe? I could be wrong on that). I bought a roll of contact paper which I am going to use instead.

I do have a heating lamp that I keep on at least 12 hours of the day and have bought another thermometer that is digital (I had one of the round, 'stick-on' thermometers that I read on this site were not accurate). However, both thermometers are reading only in the 95 degree range. I can't seem to get it any warmer. Do I need to buy another lamp? I'm afraid of getting it too hot. I also have a UVB lamp that has a Repti Glo 10.0 bulb that I keep on roughly 10-12 hours/day.

The vet said that Hughey could be brumating (or going in to brumation?! sorry if my lingo is incorrect!), however since he is new to both of us, there's really no way of knowing his habits yet. On the positive side, he does seem to be feeling better, in that he's not as lethargic and not sleeping all day long, like he was last week. I'm hoping with the continued medication and getting better veggies in him, he will continue to improve. At least if I do have to take him back to the vet this week, I'll be able to tell if he's losing weight.

Thanks again for all the help! This is an awesome website and I'm glad I found it! As soon as I figure out how, I'll post a picture of my sweet guy!

 

[Nicodemous]

Glad to hear that he is doing better. So for my two havent had any severe issues...yet!
Hope to see some pics of him soon!

 

[ButterflyGirl89]

Hey! I'm super glad that things are looking up a bit.

I couldn't find if you had said how big your tank is or not?.. anything smaller than 15 gallons is super hard to get a temperature gradient in, but I can't imagine you'd have him in anything smaller than a 20 gallon at Least for the size that he is. I think your switch to the contact paper is much better.
How many watts is your current basking light? I was using a 75 watt until today but since it's been getting colder and colder I just switched to a 100 watt. BUT I have the basking light in a dimmer dome, so I can use less than the full wattage if need be. When it was warmer I would have the 75 at like 2/3 power and it did fine, but now... meh.
So you can do a couple things. Get a higher wattage and/or a dimmer socket, or you can also add some more decor! Raised platforms and branches are a great way to allow your beardie to get closer to the lights. The closer it is to the light, the warmer it is. So if the temp is currently at 95, raising the spot by maybe even just 4 inches or so could mayyybe do the trick? 105ish is what I would probably aim for. It's fantastic that you got a digital thermometer! They're so much better.

I've read that the "Repti-Glo" brand isn't the greatest, but it doesn't seem to be too bad, either, as long as it's the long T8 tube and not the coil. When the bulb becomes 6 months old and you need to replace it, I think 95% of the people here would suggest switching to the "Repti-Sun" brand, 10.0 uvb linear T8 tube light. It just has a higher, safer uvb output.

I really really hope I don't sound preachy or especially condescending. >_<
If I do, please forgive me. I try not to. But I still wanna give advice to the best of my ability, and I would assume that advice is what you're seeking! so...
Good luck!! Keep us updated.

 

[uabmicurn]

Butterfly Girl,

I am VERY appreciative of all of the recommendations I've been getting on this site!! I will admit that when we first got Hughey, I was a little creeped out by him (I've never owned a reptile before), but am now totally, unabashedly IN LOVE with him! I tease my 7 year old son, Noah, that now Hughey belongs to momma and he can only 'borrow' him on occasion!

My tank is a Zilla Critter Cage that measures 36" L x 16" H x 18" W, which I believe is around a 40+ gallon. I'm thinking this is a good size for my beardie, from what I've read.

My basking/heating light is an All Living Things halogen-type bulb that is 100 watts. I have it in a dome with a dimmer, but have been keeping it turned all the way up, as even with the new digital thermometer I bought (which is a Fluker's Digital Thermo-Hygrometer) and have mounted on the back wall around 2-3" from the bottom, the highest it has read is about 94 degrees. I do have a climbing tree that Hughey can get on to get closer to the light source. But, to be honest, unless I place him on it, I've never seen him climb on it himself. :?: I've thought about getting one of the hammocks that I've seen on some posters pictures, but I'm unsure what type material to get. Hughey's nails are pretty sharp (the vet did trim them), and I'm afraid he'll get hung in the mesh-type hammocks I've seen.

For night time, I take out the ALT bulb and put in a Exo-Terra 75 watt Moonlight bulb (it's blue). With this bulb, the digital thermometer has been reading around 84 degrees. The vet said a 'night time' bulb really wasn't necessary, that just darkness should be okay, but considering my daytime temps don't seem to be getting in the 100+ degree range, I'm afraid to let him get too cool at night?

My UVB light, I have determined from reading on this site, is wrong: I have the Exo-Terra Repti Glo 10.0 UVB coil bulb (this was recommended from PetsMart, where my hubby bought the enclosure :x ). I am going to order the ReptiSun 10.0 fluorescent tube, but was wondering if I should order the 18" or 24", considering the size of my tank? The tank has a slide-on, mesh top (and I have a curious cat!), so I will have to get something that I can secure on to the back wall of the tank. I hope I can make this work?

@ Nicodemous -- glad your two loves are doing good!

Thanks again for all the VERY helpful advice and any more you have is always appreciated! I want my little guy to perk up and start chowing down and become active again! As soon as I can figure out how to upload pics, I will post them. I took a too precious picture today of Noah giving Hughey some lovin'!!

 

[uabmicurn]

@ Randommonks....thanks SO much for all your helpful information as well! Had I not found this site, I hate to think of what might have become of my sweet Hughey boy. The 'experts' at my three local pet stores I've been to regarding BD care are not so 'expert' after all! :x

 

[AtlasStrike]

Definitely order the 24" reptiSUN tube. It just offers more coverage. And as far as measuring temperatures, the idea behind the probe thermometers is to place the probe part directly on the basking spot in order to determine the exact temperature on that surface. Measuring the ambient (air) temperature on the wall is important, but you also need to know the surface temps of your climbing branches and such. I would imagine that if your ambient temps are 95, the reason your guy isn't climbing his branch is because the surface temps of his basking area is over 120F. Go ahead and tape a probe to that spot and see, I bet you will be lowering the power of that basking bulb pretty quick. Thermoregulatory problems can play a HUGE role in appetite, so getting your temps within an appropriate range is crucial.

Good luck with you your dude. Also, you might want to ask your vet, but it might be good to invest in some bene bac to get his stomach flora rebuilt post deworming and to help him regain his appetite.


-CK

 

[randommonks]

I like to think of pet store employees as being misled, rather than being purposely misleading to their customers. They have a lot of animals to learn about, and most probably only know what the company tells them.

Try taking a look over this guide to help you with UVB and which fixture to buy. Try to avoid the fluorescent fixtures from the pet stores, since they are really hard to mount inside the tank. You'll want to keep the lid on the tank closed since you have a cat, so try to go to Walmart or Home Depot or something similar for a 24" long fixture. I have an 18" currently on my 40 breeder, but it's normally recommended you have UVB covering 2/3 of your tank.

viewtopic.php?f=34&t=148006

 

[AtlasStrike]

As far as night time temps go, beardies are native to a desert environment, one where temperatures skyrocket to 120+ during the day (don't let this happen in your tank, as the beardie does not have the ability to burrow to escape the heat) and drop to far below 60 at night. Room temperature, pretty much whatever that is in your home at night is probably fine. If it gets colder than 65, you can get a CHE (ceramic heat emmitter) so you don't disturb sleep, but they need to both cool down and have complete darkness in order to rest properly.

 

[ButterflyGirl89]

^ ^ ^ I agree with everything stated above. lol.
Yeah, you wanna tape or wrap or somehow stick the probe to the area which is the closest the beardie can get to the bulb. Daenarys actually literally lays on her probe when she's in the mood for some heating time.
I really like the repti-hammocks from the stores. I bought 2 and never had any problem with them except the suction cup parts. For that I got 2 packs of those command hooks (3 per pack, coincidentally) and used those instead.
The tank you have is good. I do agree that you don't need the blue bulb, though. 85 is actually kind of warm for night time. They should be allowed to drop to around 70-75, and beardies can see colors that other reptiles can't. So while some might sleep fine with a blue or red bulb, it could be keeping your beardie from a truly sound sleep.
And yeah, you want the bulb to cover 2/3 of the cage, so the 24" will be much better, asap.
Once you move the probe you'll probably wind up doing some adjusting in regards to the dimmer.
Move the little sticky thermometer to the cool side if you can, or better yet get another digi probe thermometer and use that for floor temp in the cool area. But more importantly, get your current probe up on that branch.

 

[AllysonM]

I wanted to clear up a bit on the whole Petsmart thing. I work there. We aren't "taught" anything about the animals we take care of in any formal fashion. We basically have to figure it out for ourselves (through care guides, asking someone who does know, books, etc.). When shopping there and looking to get some help from someone, I'd try to see if any of the employees have that pet (in this case obviously a beardie) and then talk to those employees for recommendations. Luckily, most of the people in the petcare department at my store know what they're talking about and if they don't they consult with coworkers to figure it out and give the CORRECT information.